Whoops

pertussis

Probably the most egregious anti-science bullshit involves the idea that man’s role climate change is a “hoax.” This doesn’t seem terribly sexy to talk about because it has no real immediate personal threat to anyone, but the long-term consequences are real and pretty horrible.

So, in the grand scheme of things, I don’t rate anti-vaxxers up there with climate-change-deniers, but they are still way up on the Stupid Morons Who Don’t Have Any Brains Scale.

And of course, many of the first group are also in the second group.  It seems that once you begin to accept as true things that are quite clearly not true at all, there is almost no limit to the amount of horse manure you will swallow quite happily.

I have no idea where Nicole obtained her figures because she doesn’t tell us. [Personally, I tend to just jettison figures when somebody online tosses them out without reference to anything, but that’s just me, I suppose. I like for my facts to be actually true.]

effectiveness

So, the CDC readily tells us that the vaccine’s effectiveness fades over time. This is true, by the way, of most vaccines.  Think of it like this: the antibodies produced by the vaccines get “old.” They more or less reach their expiration date. That’s why they break the vaccine into several parts and give it over and over again.

pertussisdanger
click image to link to source

Now, I want Nicole to tell the 277 mothers who lost their babies to whooping cough that “fever, crankiness, headache, fatigue, and soreness” are about the same as having whooping cough. Their babies died.

Died.

But I want to focus on the last sentence.

You probably should just boost your immune system instead of compromising it with chemical cocktails.

Let’s take the first part. . . well. . . first.

I am so sick and tired of people who go around telling other people to do this or do that or eat this or take this to “boost your immune system.”

What in the hell does that even mean?

Nicole Naugler is a dog groomer. She washes dog butts for a living. She has a high school education. She gets her information, when she bothers to link to it, from anti-vaxxer sites. What would she know about immune systems?

In the first place, you can’t really “boost” your immune system.

Consider AIDS.  That stands for “acquired immune deficiency syndrome.”  AIDS is caused by a virus that actually does attack the human immune system. This is the reason that AIDS patients are so susceptible to everything.  But note the first word?  “Acquired.”

It didn’t just happen spontaneously.  This immune deficiency thing was “acquired” by getting the virus.

In 1918, during WWI, there was a world-wide outbreak of a very deadly form of influenza.  It killed more people than the war did, somewhere between 20 and 40 million people.

Why was it so deadly?  Flu is bad, and kills a whole lot of people every year, but that version was especially severe. The reason, in part, was the horrible conditions that so many soldiers were living in (crowded, unsanitary).  But another reason was that nobody had any immunity to it.

Remember the stuff I wrote about the various types of flu? If you don’t, go read it now.

The problem seems to be that in the 1918 version, nobody had ever been exposed to any of the proteins on the surface of that particular flu virus, so nearly everyone exposed caught it and nobody had any immunity or even any partial immunity.

The immune system is not “strong” or “weak,” although those are words you hear about it all the time. The immune system either functions or it doesn’t.  If you are susceptible to a disease, like the 1918 flu, it means that you simply don’t have any antibodies on board and your immune system, even if it is functioning beautifully, cannot attack a virus it doesn’t recognize as dangerous.

What the AIDS virus does is destroy the immune system’s ability to do that, to recognize invasive organisms and wipe them out.

What you eat doesn’t have a single thing to do with this.  “Chemicals” don’t have anything to do with this.

Furthermore, there is no reason to “boost” the immune system, even if it were possible, which it isn’t. You don’t want it “boosted.”  You simply want it to work properly: to recognize disease-causing organisms that shouldn’t be there, and say, “Aha, you SOB!” and destroy them and then retire for a nap.

Do you know what an autoimmune disease is?

There are about a dozen main ones.  They are believed to be caused by the same general problem: an immune system that goes rogue, acts like it’s on steroids and starts destroying cells willy-nilly.  Celiac disease, which my mother has, is one. It is basically a genetic disorder. That means that I am at risk for developing it (although having made it to 67 without it, I assume that my risk of getting it now is pretty tiny – my doctor doesn’t consider it an issue).  What I eat or don’t eat has no effect whatever on that risk.  “Chemicals” don’t cause it.  Genes do.

But the important thing here is that autoimmune diseases are what happens when an immune system is “boosted.”  We don’t want that, folks.  We want the system to function normally, but not to go bonkers.

But Nicole tells us that instead of getting a proper vaccine, which provides the immune system with the fucking information it needs to know which organisms it encounters are disease-causing and need to be eradicated, we should just worry about not “compromising” our immune systems with “chemical cocktails.”

This woman tells us that in all seriousness. This woman whose idea of a great treat is a trip to Hardee’s and having chocolate cake made at the bakery and bought as a mark-down for breakfast.  [Disclaimer: I just finished a piece of chocolate cake with chocolate icing. It was delicious. It didn’t do a single thing, pro or con, to my immune system, though.]

hardees2

Here’s the bottom line:  When you read that you should do this or that, or eat this, or don’t eat this, or take this pill or that concoction, because it will “boost your immune system,” run.  Quit reading.  You’re reading advice from a lunatic.

Instead, if you really want to know more about this, read this.

The article echoes much of what you’ll find in more scientific articles but with less scientific jargon. The author has an post-graduate education in science, so is qualified to write about it. And that illustrates the two major things I look for when I’m trying to figure out what is true and what is bullshit.  Here’s another one, from Harvard.

Does the piece I’m reading repeat stuff I can find at other reputable sites?  “Reputable site” does not mean “anti-vaxxersRUS.com.”  Or when I Google, am I finding the same position repeated over and over at bullshit sites?  (Big red flag)

And who is writing?  Who is this person? What is his/her educational background? What does he know, if anything?

UPDATE:

My thanks to a reader who sent me this link.

Here’s the original posting written by the stupid woman.

I warn you, the article will make you angry. I was so angry reading it that I was nearly shaking. It happened long enough ago that reporting the woman to CPS is not feasible – and I’m sure a lot of people did.

People who do this to their children should have their children removed by the state.  Period. And they should never, ever get them back.

This was not about those kids. This was all about Heather being Mother of the Year.  She’s not Mother of the Year, she’s a motherfucking idiot.

Read it, Nicole. I dare you. Read all about how easy it is to take care of whooping cough at home without medical aid.  Read about how it’s just like having a few side effects from a vaccine.  Read about what a stupid idiotic dumbass you are.

 

 

 

61 thoughts on “Whoops”

  1. One of the reasons I do little with FB these days is because of all the inaccurate, misleading, and totally wrong information out there, spread by various users, to further their agenda. And what’s worse than all that? The gullible, uninformed people who believe it, and spread it even father.

    Nicole Naugler is one of the worst offenders I have ever encountered. Where this woman gets her information and how she convinces herself that she’s on the right side of things is just mind blowing.

    What’s really mind boggling is the people who blindly follower her uneducated, misinformed, and out and out ridiculous take on things. This comment by one of her followers for example- “I sure wish I lived near you because you could teach me so many healthy ways of living.”

    Are you kidding me? Where do these people come from? Are they so far out of touch with reality that people like the Nauglers are their idea of a healthy family, or are they just off their meds?

    Yesterday Nicole made a post on the BLH page, and I quote, “Opinions are no longer opinions when they become a statement of fact. And any reasonable person can see when your trying to persuade someone that your statement of fact is just your opinion. Saying something like “IMO Nicole beats her children” is a statement of fact. It’s done with malice. It’s considered defamation.”

    The whole post was stating that commentary and opinionated statements are in fact libel and defamation whether a person states it’s their opinion or not; how it somehow becomes fact and libelous to say or write one’s opinion, or share it, if it is done with malice, even if they included the “in my opinion” part in their statement.

    This began a discussion between me and a handful of my associates; people that I work with on none other than legal matters, including libel, slander, and defamation. Two of those associates have been following the Naugler story since the beginning.

    One of them just couldn’t stand that much stupid, especially in a field in which they are well versed, and so they commented. They were cordial and just very matter of fact. They quoted the definition of fact vs opinion, and how an opinion could not be a lie. In their comment, they also alluded to the fact that they realized their comment would likely be deleted, as so many have been deleted in the past, and that they were aware of the harassment that might ensue.

    I warned that person not to comment before they did it. I warned of the pain in the ass a simple statement, right or wrong, factual or not, could be for them.

    Immediately, followers began spouting ridiculous comments showing just how ignorant people can be. Some stated they had disagreed with Nicole and had never had comments deleted. (They must be special) Others started spouting the legalities of libel and defamation, which of course they were very wrong about. My associated responded a couple of times with only facts and in statements lacking any finger pointing or emotion.

    This morning I went over to the BLH post to see if my associate’s comment had been deleted or just buried in BS, and low and behold the comment was gone. I chuckled. I knew Nicole wouldn’t allow anyone to call her out, even if done in the least abrasive way; respectfully stated fact with no opinion therein.

    I then tried to contact my associate via FB messenger. Their profile was gone. So I gave them a call and asked what was up.

    Right after they had commented on the BHL page their phone started blowing up with private messages, more than 60 of them to be exact. It went on for 7 hours. This morning when they attempted to sign on to their account there was a message from FB asking them to verify comments that they had made on the BLH page, and so they did. Then FB asked for a photo id to prove this person is who they say they are because they had been reported as having a fake account.

    So Nicole didn’t delete the comments, she cried to FB to get the commenter’s whole account deleted. Reminded me of kid on the playground that cries to the teacher when they don’t get there way and it worked for her. Well, sort of. Not using FB for much of anything but viewing pages for their hobbies, my associate just started another page and was calling this evening to laugh about Nicole and what a ridiculous fool she was.

    But one of her latest posts was nothing to laugh about; the whooping cough post. She’s a fool to believe the craziness she posts. Whooping cough is a real threat, life threatening to infants and the elderly, and currently popping up in record numbers in many states other than Kentucky. My doctor told me several weeks ago they had an outbreak of it at the college her daughter attends. According to my doctor, many of these outbreaks are being traced back to anti vaxxers and she stated the number of individuals who are antivax are growing at an alarming pace.

    As someone has already mentioned, her whooping cough post has some people spouting back at her. I wonder how many of them will be defending their FB accounts and having to produce ID in the morning.

  2. I had pertussis 5 years ago. It didn’t kill me, but I wished I were dead. It was awful. I have never been so sick. If I felt that bad I can’t imagine how a baby feels with it or how a tiny body can tolerate it. Coughing until vomiting, fever, shortness of breath, broken ribs, exhaustion- I had it all! I will take the vaccination and risk all those side effects over what whooping cough has to offer all day long.

  3. BRAVO! Fantastic post filled with valid and scientifically backed up information.
    I grew up in a third world country. My parents were there to help people. My mother ran a clinic in areas (most areas at that time) where there was no medical help of any kind.
    I saw, and realized even as a child, the devastating affects that illnesses such as whopping cough had on children. Almost 50% of children did not make it past their fifth birthday.
    These children lived in the dirt and mud, had to walk miles to try to find clean water, no hand washing available, had to use out door toilets, and their families lived off the land.
    Sound familiar?
    Being an internet persona does not give a person the right to spout forth unfounded crap that other uneducated followers will latch on to.
    Trust me on this. There is a very fine line between life and death.
    You don’t want to toy with that line and play the pieces like a game.
    It only takes one instance of whopping cough or polio or a number of other illnesses to kill a child.
    Once the line is crossed there is no getting back.
    People in third world countries beg for medical help and are thankful to have their children vaccinated. Why? Because the bottom line is…
    Vaccines save lives.

  4. I just couldn’t believe she “quoted” the Mayo Clinic, perhaps the most knowledgeable medical clinic in the world. They recommend vaccination! In no uncertain terms. She always takes bits and parts of things she wants to hear and throws it out there like it is gospel while ignoring the entire context. Science is very threatening to her….sigh.

  5. “Cover your face and hands (and wash often) to prevent spread.”

    Nicole better hope to whatever religion she’s claiming this week that she gets lucky and a VPD never finds its way into that shed. They don’t have clean water to wash with. They are all packed in so very tightly and hygiene and sanitation are so poor that any serious illness will spread like wildfire.

    Forget the drones and the “trolls” and the people out to get her. Whooping cough and tetanus could very well take that family down faster than Marquis de LaFayette at Yorktown.

  6. I had undetermined uticaria *hives* all over my body for a year. We went through every level 1 and level 2 histamine with no effect. Finally my doctor Rx’ed me cyclosporine which is a heavy duty immunosuppresant. I had to be careful where I went and if people were sick I stayed away, basically because my immune system had to be reset. I was on it a year and then I was allowed off. I have had no reoccurence. The only side effect that I had was that I killed watches with batteries. I had to search for a windup watch to wear, because everytime I replaced a battery, it was dead in 2 hours. Nobody could tell me why, except that perhaps the electrical system in my body was crazy too.
    I had a kid with whooping cough 17 years ago and it was horrible. He was in 6th grade. Missed 6 months of school. He was homeschooled.
    Now we are all caught up on our vaccinations and other than this chronic bronchitis that has settled into my lungs, are healthy.
    Anti-vaxers can go jump in the river.

  7. Every time an idiot writes a bat-shit-crazy post about not vaccinating his or her children, a poor little wing nut praises the holy grail and another one loses a horn…oh my!

    In my neck of the woods over here in AR, we have an outbreak of mumps, so the state legislatures are presenting a bill that would require all children who attend public school, regardless of religious or personal choices by their family, must get vaccinated. The antivaxxers are going nuts about their rights and their choices and their religion. I refuse to join the conversation because I’ve not seen one of those damn antivaxxers who demonstrates an ability to argue without quoting some antivax propaganda. They keep posting if we allow the government to dictate….and I say, shit, if a frog had wings, he wouldn’t bump his ass when he walks.

    They worry about their right to make decisions involving their own children’s health while totally disregarding other folks’ rights to demand a healthy environment in public spaces such as schools, parks, stores, etc. for their children. While I’m not an expert in immunology, I am an expert in how I felt living for almost two years starting at the age of 4 in an iron lung in a room filled with other children unfortunate enough to have gotten polio and, even worse, hearing the nurses whisper when they came to take the ones who didn’t survive out of their iron lungs. Back then, the polio unit was huge and all of kids were crammed in together without privacy screens or curtains because, you see, children didn’t need privacy. I know how it felt to want so much to go home that I dreamed about it and how disappointed I was to learn that when I went home, I wasn’t going to ever be well or ever be able to stand on my own two feet like the regular kids. I know how it felt going to school wearing heavy metal braces on my freaking legs using crutches to hold myself up. In fact, I remember, when I lived with my grandmother, the longing to be like other children who could climb on and off the bus, walk up stairs, and run and play. I also know how I felt when I got home and my grandmother helped me remove those leg braces and awful special shoes so I could get a bath and how she worked so hard to treat the blisters on my thighs, knees, and ankles that were caused by the braces. But mostly, I remember watching my grandmother lean my braces and crutches against the dresser in my room so that even when I went to bed, I never forgot that mechanics still pervaded my life. Fifty-seven years ago and I am still being treated for polio or the after effects of polio’s destruction to my skeletal system.

    And here’s a little joke on stupid ass antivaxers–you want to boost your immunity or your children’s immunity, get the freaking vaccines cause you cannot boost with a glass of fucking orange juice.

  8. BTW, I hate that picture of the idiot drinking the Hardees coke. I cannot decide if she is just trying to piss me off or if she is like those teens who take selfies to document all the fun things in their lives. Poor village idiot.

  9. What cracks me up about antivaxers….and you’ll hear this over and over…

    “How can I look at this beautiful, new, perfect little baby and allow them to inject SO MANY diseases into his system at once? They want to give vaccines for 5 different diseases on the same day! Why so many at once? My baby is just months old, that’s TOO MUCH!”

    On the surface this sounds reasonable….we introduce foods one at a time for Pete’s sake. I understand being crazy protective of a newborn. Been there and done it.

    But what these folks don’t understand…is that because babies immune systems are brand new….they are getting challenged with dozens of pathogens every single day. Bacteria, virus, fungus, all sorts of challenges. Things they touch, air they breathe…things their brothers and sisters have on their hands when they touch them. Objects they put in their mouths. Kinda horrifies me when I see people allowing babies to gnaw on their fingers when they’re teething. I think about everything under those fingernails and think…..why, why did I have to study microbiology? LOL.

    But then I think….nope. Their immune systems are built to handle that. They can process hundreds of pathogenic threats in a day. REAL LIVE pathogens…..not the beaten down, safe, killed versions given in vaccinations.

    Five different safety-killed pathogens…is a walk in the park compared to the live bad bugs your kiddo is likely to encounter riding in a cart at the supermarket, or when he finds his brother’s shoe and gives it a chew or two before you notice.

    When it comes to “healthy immune systems”….beyond her fear of vaccines….Nicole has another serious blind spot.

    Oral hygiene.

    Bad oral hygiene is a HORRIBLE for your health. Periodontal disease from tartar build up and biofilms…is serious bad news.

    The problem is that your gums can easily swell and bleed when you have an oral hygiene issue….and when even tiny blood vessels open up to those bacteria rich biofilms growing on your teeth and tongue…that bacteria can migrate into your blood.

    Obviously, plaque and tartar can cause gum erosion and can lead to tooth loss and bone loss…..but did you know that bacteria in your blood stream from bad teeth or gums can cause heart valve infections and lead to heart failure? Kidney infections, too.

    Periodontal disease is linked to heart disease, arterial narrowing, stroke, increased brain inflammation, early dementia, pneumonia, COPD, erectile dysfunction, and even cancer.

    Researchers have found that men with gum disease were 49% more likely to develop kidney cancer, 54% more likely to develop pancreatic cancer, and 30% more likely to develop blood cancers.

    Essentially….it’s a really BAD idea to have bacteria constantly migrating into your blood through sore gums that bleed.

    Keeping your gums pink, firm and healthy requires twice daily tooth brushing and flossing and tartar removal through routine cleanings. It’s not vanity. It’s basic healthcare.

    Doesn’t matter if you’ve got crooked teeth or even missing teeth….they won’t kill you or make you sick. Bad gums will though…so it’s critically important to keep them clean and well adhered to teeth so no bacteria trapping pockets form.

    I wonder how many of the Naugler kids have seen a dentist or had their teeth cleaned?

    When you live in a family that doesn’t prioritize washing clothes and hair….what are the odds that those kids get a new toothbrush twice a year, or a spool of floss? How many of the teens already have tartar causing gum erosion that will lead to worse problems in a few years?

    Amylase in your saliva starts turning starches into sugar as soon as you chew. Given their carb heavy diet….those kids have to be producing some very sugary biofilms which breed a shit ton of pathogens and cause cavities.

    You want to “boost their immune systems” and keep them from getting diseases, Nicole?

    Get everyone to the dentist. That’s the most important place to start. Make sure everyone brushes twice a day. Set a visual example of brushing and flossing twice a day, so it will be part of your family culture.

  10. It is nice to see some people are challenging Nicole and telling her she is full of shit. There is entertainment value in her screeching, “I didn’t say that.” It would appear some people are quite clearly seeing the light about her.
    My favorite comment from her was this: “Of course they recommend the vaccine. And the booster. This is a source of income.” This was in reference to the Mayo Clinic. I actually and truly laughed out loud at this. If she had ANY knowledge of the Mayo Clinic, she would understand that if a patient is not able to afford the care they require – whether it be the whole amount or just part of it – the Mayo will help to ensure that is not a barrier to care.
    If Nicole had done ANY research at all into why the Mayo even exists and how they operate today, she would discover that they do a LOT of fundraising so that sick people can get the care they need.
    How do I know that? Well, it’s because I am a patient of the Mayo. I have spent a lot of time there receiving outstanding care from the moment I walked through the door. Volunteers have answered my questions and happily wheeled me around when I was too exhausted to get to my next appointment. They cheerfully brought me magazines and delivered my meals after major surgeries. The physicians have been outstanding and they got to the bottom of my health issues. Ironically, one of those issues is a serious auto-immune disease that could have lead to blindness.
    And when all was said and done I had racked up almost $250,000 in medical bills. My insurance covered $200,000 (I have a job, Nicole, that provides excellent health benefits. You should have Joe try it). There is no way I could pay the remaining debt. Do I have to worry? No. The rest was covered because of generous donations to their foundation.
    So Nicole, pick up a fucking history book will you. My suggestion would be “The Doctors Mayo” which is a riveting look at the history of this fine institution.

  11. Totally off topic, but this bugs me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1YORQyeHb0&t=186s

    Was just watching this video of one of the kids talking about life on the homestead.

    At 3:15 Nicole asks the boy, who is ten, “What’s the hardest part about living off grid?”

    He responds, “The Winter. We don’t have a…” He stops himself. “When you barely have a woodstove that’s working.”

    Nicole corrects to, “You have to get a woodstove and haul wood. That’s hard work, isn’t it?”

    Z. gets nervous and immediately changes the topic of conversation, weirdly….to electric chairs, and how it would be expensive to run one on a generator.

    Man, I wonder if protective services catches this stuff. Glad they have a better stove now. (I think?) But it’s sad to see a child so conditioned to catch himself when he says something that might sound “wrong” even if it’s the truth. 🙁

  12. I am so incredibly sick of anti-vaxxers. Thankfully, my parents vaceer me, because when I was 11, I developed an immune deficiency and I caught pneumonia so often that I developed scar tissue in my lungs from coughing for a year and a half. And that was with FIVE courses of antibiotics in a year (my parents were idiots for not taking me to a doctor sooner). I had treatment with gamma globuline for three years (IV every other week). In consequence, I have to be careful around germ filled people. Antibiotics just don’t always work which leads to extra check ups for infections after each miscarriage I have etc. And it leads to “fun” social situations, such as a pissed off SIL because I walked out of her house the second I heard her daughter had whooping cough. Yes. I did have a booster, but I just can’t take the risk. And even after I showed my SIL my medical records over the last 20 years, she still wouldn’t believe me. She says I make a fuss to get attention….

  13. She loves posting that crap all the time. My friends son spent months in the NICU, as an infant, from whooping cough. His grandma had to do CPR ( she is a delivery nurse) because the baby quit breathing. Neonatal tetanus is horrific. I read a scientific study that the 1918 flu was so bad in part that an individual’s immune system went over active. She is just lucky her kids haven’t gotten anything serious and died. She can spend hours posting anti vacant crap and having flawed debates. Has she ever spoken to anyone who has a friend/family member who have died from the disease? My parents did,as did my grandparents. I believe in the summer of 2015 Seattle had an individual die from measles. This person was immunocompromised. How the hell were they suppose to strengthen their immune system? They were exposed to someone who was not vaccinated. So much for their “rights”. I would love her to publish credible studies if she is going to post shit.

  14. This makes me so angry. Comparing weeks (!!!) of suffering to the small side effects of a vaccination. Side effects are mild and may last for a few hours or days. Her comment is just a slap in the face to all the people who had to deal with full blown pertussis. And I don’t only mean the sick person, but the people who care for them, sit with them through the night, etc.
    I had pertussis when I was small. I had not been vaccinated because there was a problem with the vaccine and it was temporarily of the market in Germany in the early 80s. It took more than 4 weeks to get well again. My mom sat with me many nights when I coughed and vomited. She was so worried that I might choke.
    The baby of a colleague developed pertussis before he was old enough to be vaccinated. The parents took turns to watch over him at night because he was too small to help himself (sit up for a coughing fit) and they were worried he might suffocate. The first months of this baby’s life were suffering for the kid and the parents. And it could have been prevented if herd immunity for pertussis was stronger.
    I only recently realized that the German health authorities recommend pertussis vaccination for everybody in contact with babies/small children. I will get on that at my next doctor visit.

  15. Wow, some of the comments on the Skeptical Raptor site are depressing for their complete and strongly held ignorance.

  16. Yes, that one bothered me. She claims to have seen lots of children with whooping cough. If she had, it would scare the hell out of her. Certain “bacterial infections ” are not to be fucked around with. They can cause death. There’s a case before the courts in my home province of a mother charged with neglect as she thought her young boy had a cold, and she tried to treat him with oregano oil and dandelion tea. He was full of strep. He died after being bed ridden for ten days. I get so tired of arm chair scientists bashing medicines and vaccinations. I think it’s negligence. And rampant stupidity.

  17. Wow, some of the comments on the Skeptical Raptor site are depressing for their complete and strongly held ignorance.

    I try to avoid reading comments (except the ones here). Most of the time, they make me feel despair for the fate of homo-sapiens.

  18. My number one tip off that someone is a loon is when they insist they know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING.

    Now excuse me while my idiot self goes and feeds my vaccinated kid a hot breakfast and gives him a bath in a heated bathroom with hot running water.

    Our area had a whooping cough outbreak 3 years ago, when my youngest was not fully vaccinated (due to his age). IMO, anti-vaxxers are way worse than climate change deniers. Everytime I took my kid anywhere I was terrified that he was going to catch some God-forsaking disease. An acqaintance whose daughter had cancer and could not have vaccines almost lost her daughter due to a disease that is completely preventable. People who refuse to vaccinate their kids just because are inexcusable.

  19. Pertussis Treated at Home!!?? What the?!
    My Mom’s oldest sister died of whooping cough before the vaccine was available. My grandmother (Memaw) still grieved in her later years and was haunted by her death. It was awful watching her struggle to breathe. She was 16 months old.
    I only wish Memaw had 5 minutes with Nicole & her dangerous ignorance. I’m sure she could hold her own.

  20. I left a comment on a non supporter page of the nauglers and they also reported me and asked to see ID so i just made a new account. can’t even like something because i have been reported 3 times. so childish

  21. She is so fucking stupid. I know someone who lost their two month old son to whooping cough. Let me get this straight, she’d rather her kids have a horrendous cough and fever and feel like shit than to feel cranky and achy. JFC

  22. IMO, anti-vaxxers are way worse than climate change deniers.

    My criteria for making the statement that climate change deniers are worse is that when we don’t have a habitat where human beings can live it won’t matter whether or not we are vaccinated. 🙂

  23. Nicole got bent out of shape because someone called her a filthy hippie that should be sterilized. Okay, not a nice comment and untrue because she sure as shit isn’t a hippie. Her response is anything but “peace and love man.” Instead we get typical sanctimonious Nauglespeak: ” The irony is vaccines reduce fertility so the #VaxOrDie crowd is sterilizing themselves.” Cold, cruel, self absorbed, and in this case, just patently untrue.

    Fertility is the ability to get pregnant, not how many children you choose to have. Vaccines are not sterilizing people. They are not reducing their fertility. Not in America, not anywhere. There is a correlation between vaccinations coupled with available birth control and a reduction in the amount of children a family has. Not having to worry about how many of your children will die from a preventable disease has that effect. No need for an heir, and 10 spares when the likelihood is that those children you choose to have will survive to adulthood. It’s called family planning, not infertility.

    This idiocy has to end. Thank you Sally for being one of those people who are pushing back.

  24. I will cede that point, but on the other hand if my son died from a completely preventable disease because of my own stupidity, I do not think I could bear to live on this planet anymore, anyway.

  25. Nicole would not know what a scientific study was saying if it was in plain English and not in science-speak. She gets all her “information” from anti-vax sites, just like she gets all her views on government from anti-government, anarchist sites.

    She obviously has no science background of any sort, doesn’t understand the first thing about it, and thinks she knows everything.

    Today, I have to vacuum seal half a pig and a whole lamb, so I won’t get to much else, but we’re going to talk a little bit about defamation after I finish. Maybe tomorrow.

  26. Twinsmom5,

    It didn’t have to be the nonsupporter page that reported you. The Nauglerites report people who comment on nonsupporter pages too, not just on their own pages. I was reported several times for that before I made a page. I have had several people tell me they were reported simply for liking something on my page that had nothing to do with the Nauglers. They have been stalked online and off with private messages sent to themselves, their families, employers, church leaders and friends. That’s not to say that a nonsupporter did not report you. Just saying that it could have been an asshole in either “camp”.

  27. MyOhMy said, “Right after they had commented on the BHL page their phone started blowing up with private messages, more than 60 of them to be exact. It went on for 7 hours. This morning when they attempted to sign on to their account there was a message from FB asking them to verify comments that they had made on the BLH page, and so they did. Then FB asked for a photo id to prove this person is who they say they are because they had been reported as having a fake account.

    It’s not incredible, that I am not surprised. The only surprise is her nefarious activity such as this, still going strong after 19 months. I see now, a preference to screenshot and take it elsewhere to discuss. Like BLB, where informative and intelligent debate is regarded. It might be mind blowing though, to discover how many folks have encountered blowback such as this, for commenting on her BLH public page. I imagine every time there is a person that has a comment which doesn’t suit Nicole, the first thing is creeping their page and forming an attack.

    DeNaugified said, “But it’s sad to see a child so conditioned to catch himself when he says something that might sound “wrong” even if it’s the truth. ” It is sad, terribly sad, the dirty little secrets the children must keep. And fear of having a free voice, to speak the truths in their life. Fear of saying something Nicole would deem as negative. Child innocence, stolen. Your mentioning is a recollection now, of Nicole yelling to the two teen boys in the Sheriff Pate audio. Something to the effect, “Don’t say a word! Do not say anything, not a word!” Oh, the onus on the kids, the weight they must feel on their shoulders at such an innocent age. And showcasing the kids, in video opps, with carefully filtered and prompted speech.

  28. Bravo Lisa! “Okay, not a nice comment and untrue because she sure as shit isn’t a hippie.”

    Being around during the actual hippie generation, I’ve been somewhat humored at her wanna be hippie posturing. That’s another mantra, where she doesn’t have a clue. Read and research, Nicole. You are no hippie. Not even representin’ well.

    The coffee snorting giggle, this morning.

  29. @MyOhMy

    I read that cute little effort by Nicole to sound logical, legalistic and educated. Fact, opinion, libel. She failed yet again, of course, and sounded like a teenager on a rant about the inequities of being made to set the table as a small chore. But it was cute because she and I agree for once. She said, roughly here, that if I say in my opinion Nicole beats her kids then that is a statement of fact. She’s the one declaring it a fact. Maybe one she wants to distance herself from, but he’s the one saying it’s a fact. Freudian slip here?

    But anti-vax folks bother me particularly as well. Vaccinations are done for individual and public health. I tend to think that many people who decry the use of vaccinations are those who either want to hide their children from anyone with an obligation to report abuse or who have no idea what the danger really is without vaccinations.

    I have unusual interests and among those interests are deconstructing decisions, actions, and cultural influences that led to well-known disasters like Hindenburg, Challenger, Apollo 1, Columbia. etc. One of the interesting points that I run into is a tendency to move on a continuum from being strict about safety, to safe operation being normal, to complacency about safety, to external pressures influencing less vigilance, to something really bad happening. I think it is much the same way with vaccinations. Culturally, so many anti-vaxxers are so removed from ever having to deal with preventable epidemic illness that they think the threat no longer exists. At the same time anti-vaxxers go nuts on vaccines and efforts for the public health, public servants work feverishly to anticipate new developments in disease prevention. Maybe anti-vax folks should look at photographs of preventable illnesses (thanks to vaccinations) and determine if they want their kids or themselves to live like that. Self-righteous complacency irritates me very badly.

  30. She has obviously never watched an infant struggling to breathe, hyperventilating, turning blue even *with* IV antibiotics and an oxygen tent. It was pneumonia, not pertussis, but it was horrendous to stand by and feel so helpless watching your 2 month old struggle for every breath, watching his heart and respiration rates on the monitors. Thankfully he pulled through, with lots of intervention and manual suctioning of secretions. My husband came home one day and noticed our 6 month old had a very strange, gasping cough. We listened to several whooping cough files online and then took him to the ER….where the nurse informed us that “It can’t be whooping cough, it’s been ERADICATED”!!!

    The problem is that people not only don’t get their kids vaccinated, they also don’t know the signs and symptoms of the various diseases esp since many overlap. Often they can’t be positively id’d until a rash shows up or something else, which might be too late for treatment. Then they try to treat it at home instead of seeking emergency help, until the child is too far gone to be saved. I can truly not understand the concept of NOT getting your kids vaxxed or giving them the flu shot, only to have them end up being dehydrated and tortured to get a blood sample (btdt), in the hospital hooked up to an IV and pumped full of fluids and antibiotics. Not to mention other effects such as pneumonia, or swollen joints/cartilage after the infection like my son gets (not sure of the name, but is often worse than illness in terms of discomfort).

    Yeah it’s good to be healthy, active and all that but that doesn’t make you safe. In my family of 4 kids it’s a crapshoot of who ends up sick with what, 1 might come down with strep, 2 might get the flu, 3 might have the stomach bug. Only 1 came down with H1N1 and he nearly died, my 11 month old was in his face constantly and he never got sick. Also, with the Spanish flu during WWI, those most likely to die were the young and healthy not the very young or very old as in most epidemics.

  31. Before pertussis vaccines became widely available in the 1940s, about 200,000 children got sick with it each year in the United States and about 9,000 died as a result of the infection. (And keep in mind, in 1940, we had a much smaller population density)

    Nicole and her…”why bother? it’s only 70% effective, and it’s effectiveness reduces with time”

    Here’s why, asshat:

    If you get whooping cough after you’ve been vaccinated, you are less likely to have a serious infection. Typically, your cough won’t last as many days and coughing fits, whooping, and vomiting after coughing fits won’t occur as often.

    When vaccinated children get pertussis, fewer have apnea (life-threatening pauses in breathing), cyanosis (blue/purplish skin coloration due to lack of oxygen), and vomiting. <—-THIS!

    God help that poor pregnant girl living with them if one of the kids picks up whooping cough at work or the grooming shop and it goes through the whole pack. I cannot imagine a more devastating set of circumstances for an infant. Wife to be? Vaccinate your baby!

  32. Oh, wow! She is a mess. Luckily I am far away from her non vaxxed brood. Been reading here for a while and the antivaxx movement pissed me off leading me to actually post. I am Immunodeficient and, sadly, do not make antibodies for many types of infections. Her choice to not Vax is a hazard to everyone around her family. As a child I got all of my vaccines and still managed to catch almost everything that went around. Luckily, herd immunity protected and still protects me from a lot of illness. That being said I am also learning to take a lot of precautions to protect my health in public(recent diagnosis). Unfortunately, I can’t “build up” my immune system without regular IGG infusions. Diet my a**. If it could be resolved by diet and vitamins I would save mega $$$ and not be sick all the time.
    Vaccines are crucial for normal children to keep them healthy and even more crucial to protecting the public that is immunocompromised through genetic defect or as a result of illness. Give me a break, not vaccinating a child is negligence. Having had a boatload of craptastic illnesses in my life I can say with sincerity no child deserves it if the illness can be avoided.

  33. Thank you for speaking so intelligently about auto-immune disease. As someone who has it, I am so tired of people talking about boosting the immune system without knowing what that means.

  34. I missed our flu shots once and my oldest child lost six weeks of her life to the couch. It wasn’t just the flu, it was the recovery afterwards. She was too achy and sore to stand having her hair brushed for two weeks and fixing it afterward was a nightmare.

    Besides the utter stupidity of exposing your kids to things that can really screw up their lives–for years, possibly, because measles appears to take a chainsaw to your immune system–or, you know, kill them, there’s the subtext of “vaccines cause autism.”

    Because it’s better to watch your child drown slowly in their own snot, or die because their hearts are too damaged to sustain them, then have them grow up autistic like me. I want to tell all those parents who think that way: “Go to Hell. Go directly to Hell. Do not pass Go. Do not collect your ration of sympathy for having a hopelessly damaged inadequate unsatisfactory child. You utter wastes of skin.”

  35. Autoimmune diseases absolutely suck. Just my RA alone can make me useless on a bad day. Constantly fiddling with meds to find what helps with the least side effects.

    I think a main thing helping this antivax bullshit gain ground is that the people old enough to remember how bad things were are dying off. The ramifications of these horrible diseases are becoming lost to time. Same thing happens with hurricanes. No storms hit for years and people forget. Then they get hit with a Cat 5 and wonder why their house blew away.

  36. She’s quoting odds of 70% effectiveness. I’ll take those odds any day over whooping cough, or any preventable disease with vaccines available today. Her argument of vaccines and infertility is bullshit. She had all the vaccines, and she is not infertile, much as she loves holding up her own measly existence as scientific proof of so much in her inane arguments. She has no understanding of science, and lacks compassion for the suffering of children. Her claims of having healthy children are just that, her claims and ‘truth’ and ‘Nicole Naugler’ are opposites. Someday this will all come back to bite her hard. It’s only a matter of time when playing the odds with disease, with each passing year increasing the odds against them. She is an idiot. My only surprise was she didn’t call the poster calling her out on NCN, her usual foul mouthed obscenities.
    Thanks for the warnings and reminders to all regarding the Naugler’s continued campaign to stifle truth and reason.

  37. Jenny Islander,

    Thank you. As the mother of an “autistic” child I love your comment. My son is perfect the way he is. He is my pride and joy. He is funny, creative, independent and one of the most original thinkers I have had the pleasure to hang out with. While raising him was at times a bit different or a bit challenging I cannot imagine my life without him.

    Besides the fact that vaccinations do not cause autism I have always been taken aback by some of the anti-vaxxer attitudes that a crippled or dead child is preferable to an autistic one. What a load of ignorance and outright prejudice. It’s fear mongering at its worst. Every life is precious in its own way. Many people on the spectrum have full and happy lives. Neil Tyson deGrasse correctly pointed out that there are many scientists on the spectrum contributing to the welfare of the human race every single day.

    The parents can go to hell, but I feel sorry for their special little snowflakes if they don’t turn out so special or so perfect. What a bunch of sorry ass parents they were dealt.

  38. Jennifer Islander wrote, “Go to Hell. Go directly to Hell. Do not pass Go. Do not collect your ration of sympathy for having a hopelessly damaged inadequate unsatisfactory child. You utter wastes of skin.”

    Thank you for your candor. I would only add the Nauglers are also “utter wastes of air”…that very air that kids with whooping cough so desperately struggle to draw into their lungs.

  39. Back to the Nauglers: This is the pretty pair who believe that you don’t have to vaccinate against tetanus because Clostridium tetani is washed out of a wound by flowing blood, or killed by oxygen, or something. They also sit around watching their children become miserably ill because they ate something unsafe, and describe it as a way for their children to learn to do better. Plus, they almost let their children eat toads because they can’t tell a toad from a frog, and let them pick Queen Anne’s lace without mentioning the presence of water hemlock in western Kentucky. Or maybe she believes all this and he just doesn’t care as long as his hindbrain is happy, I dunno.

    Put all this together and I am very much afraid that at least one Naugler child is going to end up dead of a preventable disease or an avoidable poison because they’ll park the child somewhere outdoors, take some photos, and sit around talking about natural consequences while the child passes the point of no hope.

  40. Lisa wrote “Besides the fact that vaccinations do not cause autism I have always been taken aback by some of the anti-vaxxer attitudes that a crippled or dead child is preferable to an autistic one. What a load of ignorance and outright prejudice. It’s fear mongering at its worst. Every life is precious in its own way. Many people on the spectrum have full and happy lives. Neil Tyson deGrasse correctly pointed out that there are many scientists on the spectrum contributing to the welfare of the human race every single day.”

    As a mother of a fully vaccine autistic teenager I say YES!!! My son is brilliant, funny and a joy to watch grow. I am quite certain his autism wasn’t caused by vaccines or anything medical. I knew in my gut when he was a young infant that he was different from all my other children. And that was okay. He was diagnosed at 18 months because I pushed and luckily we already saw a developmental pediatrician for one of our older children. Because he was diagnosed early he had access to early intervention. That early invention helped tremendously, it helped him to communicate and helped with some fine motor skills that he struggles with. I would never change him, he’s just who he is.

    We also have a child with an autoimmune disease. I won’t post it here because it’s pretty rare and yes I use a fake name. I have my reasons, Sally knows my reasons. Once again my child is fully vaccinated and thank goodness he is. He already gets pretty much anything that goes around. Before he went off to college he made sure to get all his boosters, the thought of him catching something wasn’t something any of us wanted to risk.

    I know far too many antivaxxers, I try desperately to avoid the subject because honestly the stupid burns.

    Thanks again Sally for your informed post. Thank goodness none of my children have every caught anything preventable by a vaccine. One has had pneumonia and that was horrible, just listening to my little boy cough and cough was heartbreaking. Thank goodness it was caught and treated before it got too bad.

    I am not a huge fan of running off to the doctor the second someone gets sick, especially now that they are all older. When they were young they certainly went to the doctor more than I cared too because they couldn’t fully communicate and I’d rather waste an hour at the doctors office than them end up in the hospital.

    It saddens me that the Naugler children don’t get medical care. We’ve all seen the burns and gashes and the pictures of sick children laying outside. As a mother I just don’t get it. When my children are sick I drop everything to take care of them. They are pampered and cared for, it’s what parents do. When they are injured they get emergency care.

    There is no excuse for those children not getting medical and dental care. With a family their size I am sure they qualify for medicaid. Medical care would cost them nothing or close to it. I suspect the reason they don’t get their children medical and dental care is because they keep their children hidden. Doctors would ask too many questions that Nicole wouldn’t want answered. What a sad life.

  41. Oh I missed this “clean the air”?!?! Ummm well maybe some folks can clean the air in their homes but we’ve all seen the videos posted in the shitshack and there is no way to clean that air. That would require electricity, something the Naugs don’t have. She is a fucking nut.

  42. @ Dinah, you wrote: “I suspect the reason they don’t get their children medical and dental care is because they keep their children hidden. Doctors would ask too many questions that Nicole wouldn’t want answered. What a sad life.”
    I believe that is part of the reason to be sure. If Nicole had shown up in the ER with Q’s horribly burned hand for example, CPS would definitely have been called. Those pics of all those terribly ill, puking children, laying on filthy blankets on the ground, paled in comparison to Nicole’s attitude that they deserved to be sick because they ate something without asking. How twisted is that?
    And it reveals something far more sinister in my opinion, beyond the fear of CPS involvement. I don’t believe that Nicole actually has true, motherly love and emotional attachment to her children. They are like little trophies to her; objects she can parade around on her pretend homestead. I think she looks at them like people view puppies – adorable when they are young but they outgrow that stage and are disposable as they get older. She is actually a lot like Michelle Duggar – addicted to pregnancy and babies because her identity and value are confirmed when an infant is hanging off her tit. As soon as the nursing is done though, they are shuttled off to be cared for by an older sibling. I really think she will have an epic meltdown when the grandchild arrives. Instead of it being a joyous event, attention will be given to the new mom and Nicole will be tossed aside.
    The Naugler children are in danger and surprisingly it isn’t because of the filth, the animals or the sloth. They are in danger because their mother is unstable and has a disturbing attachment disorder.

  43. Heather Dexter is a quack and another child abusing idiot. I hope all of these abusive parents contract whooping cough or another disease before they are able to torture their children and science takes it’s course of action first. What a horrible story of a woman’s ignorant pride and the community of her ilk who torture children including their cowardly spouses and relatives. These women do not love their children. They only love their blogs.
    I too have suffered through whooping cough, and cannot imagine how a child or infant could survive the 3 plus months of pure hell, and years of susceptibility to bronchitis and pain that continues. Please, go get a booster as an adult!! (Very inexpensive or free). You simply cannot imagine the pain from this disease.
    Nicole fails again to understand that if a child does survive these illnesses it will not be without complications. These complications often will surface years later causing increased suffering and increased susceptibility to other illnesses throughout life. Survival is not the end of the story with any of these preventable diseases, and Nicole and Heather Dexter have conveniently omitted the sequela.
    These vaccines would be free to her family but I think she is both afraid to submit to, and hateful of the authority and knowledge of traditionalists, and also lazy. Nicole is so ignorant she believes she is an expert on vaccines, after all she states, she has studied vaccines for two years! (U of WWW)
    She is the classic fool.

    If anyone reading here has any influence over the expectant parents, please don’t be a coward!

  44. Anti vaxxer must really hate their kids to want them to suffer so much. Just read your update and I’m shaking with rage.
    Blaming the vaccinated population?
    That woman needs to grow the fuck up and realize it is not all about how awesome she is. She tormented her children so she could feel superior.
    Fuck that stupid bitch, and the rest of the anti vax crowd. Child abuse and torture.

  45. “The ramifications of these horrible diseases are becoming lost to time.”

    Look no further than Ebola. I’ve even WORKED at USAMRIID and am familiar with BL4 diseases and the protocols for working with them.

    I am vaccinated against Ebola (thank you Vaccine Research Center at NIH). But guess what? Now that the immediate horrifying crisis is over, there is a lot less attention being paid by those who FUND RESEARCH. Despite researchers still insisting that if you want answers and effective vaccines, it doesn’t happen for free and it takes TIME.

  46. I really do not understand the anti-vaccination mindset. The science of vaccination is not complicated nor is it some sort of control mechanism except of disease.

    I have had a rather negative experience with anthrax shots (they hurt like you-know-where and my body did some weird things after I got them). I am not going to say causation but correlation. People who work with cattle have gotten anthrax shots for a long time with no ill effect.

    But jiminy crickets most homeopathic remedies were devised because science hadn’t developed sufficiently to even understand what caused disease. They were somewhat effective but largely because of their placebo effect. Medicine was an art back then, not so much a science. Feeling crummy because your ‘humours’ are out of whack and you have an excess of blood? Leeches anyone? Bad air, stinky air caused bubonic plague (so they thought) so let’s purify the air with big fires and put up flower bouquets everywhere. The Batican did that and it was successful but not because it purified any air. Rats didn’t care to cross the ring of bonfiredThese are things that were actually done back in those yonder years. Trying to revert to those years is a very foolish rejection of considerable learning and medical progress. And it seems to be a voluntary gamble that is fashionable for otherwise vaccinated parents of first world countries to impose on their children in some naive belief that these diseases and their potential consequences don’t exist anymore.

  47. They were somewhat effective but largely because of their placebo effect.

    Not largely. Entirely. They are nothing but water. There is no active ingredient.

    Unless you are so dehydrated that a few drops of water makes a difference. . .

  48. Thank you for the update. I couldn’t get through the entire original link. I was so sick. I cannot imagine letting my child cough a week without taking them into a REAL doctor let alone months and months. That women isn’t a mother, she’s an awful human being that happened to give birth to children.

  49. Is there an outbreak of whooping cough in Kentucky? I worry when she posts about something so specific, when her kids are unvaccinated. When she posted about this, my first thought was that one or more of the children were infected.

  50. The lady in your update is absolutely unbelievable. And to think she poats that online like she is proud of herself.

    You know who did not suffer on her little story? SHE DIDNT! Because (I am assuming) her acience believing veterinarian father had the good sensw to make sure she had her damn vaccinations! You are right…..people who are willing to allow their kids to suffer to prove some stupid point ahould jot be allowed to have them! She admits herself that her children were terrified……I dont care how many cuddles she provided, that isnt going to help your kid get breath into his mucous filled lungs.

    And her husband ought to be ashamed of himself. If I went off on some hair brained schemw like this my husband would immediately intervene and take our kid to the doctor. With or without my consent. Grow a pair of testicles and act like a father and a man for pete’s sake.

  51. Lets talk about the Amish…those clean, pure living folks who have “homesteading” and “living off grid” down to a freaking science.

    In 2014 some Amish folks from Ohio sent a couple of missionaries to the Philippines, and they came home with the Measles….to a largely unvaccinated, close knit community.

    Oh…but they are healthy people who “have healthy immune systems”!….they’ll be fine, right?

    Wrong. The Measles spread like wild fire. Over 300 cases, and eight hospitalizations…including an infant and a toddler who were hit hard and had long hospital stays in critical care. These people got sick. Really sick. For weeks. Many reported losing twenty pounds and being seriously ill for over a month.

    Having had a look at the Measles close up, what did the Amish community do? They got vaccinated. Hundreds of Amish community members in Ohio lined up to get vaccinated in makeshift clinics at feed stores and building suppliers. They brought their children and babies to be vaccinated. They SAW what the disease looked like, they opened their eyes to the fact that it can kill you…. and they figured out that vaccinating was their best bet.

    But if you tough it out and get through the Measles….it’s really not that big a deal, right? About two out of a thousand people who get measles…die…most often kids under five years old. Others get encephalitis that can cause brain injury and lasting deficit.

    Having had Measles has another sneaky surprise…Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) is a very rare, but fatal disease of the central nervous system that results from a measles virus infection acquired earlier in life. SSPE generally develops 7 to 10 years after a person has measles, even though the person seems to have fully recovered from the illness. If you could prevent it with a vaccination, why in the hell would you let your child risk getting a FATAL encephalitis a decade after an infection?

    I seriously fear that Nicole has to learn the hard way.

    She has to see her children get sick and be hospitalized to have a clue how serious these illnesses can be.

    I wouldn’t wish it on ANY parent (not even the criminally stupid Nauglers), but Nicole seems hell bent to push her luck until one of her kids pays for her willful stupidity.

    Run, F., run!

  52. This will be a bit of a rambling post, so fasten your seat belts.
    I am a believer in certain types of natural medicine. In the summer I forage and put up a variety of dried plants and syrups and tinctures made from those plants. Many modern drugs have their basis in these plants. For instance, the properly harvested bark from a willow can be steeped into a tea and the effect is like taking aspirin. Wild rose petals can be infused in water and used to sooth injured eyes. Spruce pitch has antiseptic properties and protects a wound much like the modern bandaid.
    I spend time collecting these medicines for various reasons. I expand my knowledge, it is fun and most important for me, I am following the tradition of being a healer like my ancestors.
    Does that mean I shun modern medicine? Of course not. I am very fortunate to have an internist who is a talented doctor and who also shares his practice with a Naturopathic Doctor and a Doctor of Chinese medicine. They work as a team and I am in good hands. They all encourage vaccinations and boosters. There is a cohesiveness of care and it is not just one way being the right way. I often think of them as a braid – strongest woven together.
    All three practioners encourage me to study and to read. They provide resources. Nicole would of course screech that they are in it for the money. Of course they want to make a living but they have zero-balanced my co-pays because they know we can’t afford them.
    Yesterday I commented that I do not believe Nicole really loves her children. My mother gave us her all. When she had to undergo brutal rounds of chemo and radiation, the only time she missed work was when she had to have a treatment. She dragged herself to her job, sick and bald, every day because she knew if she tried to take time off they would fire her. Back then, there was no Union and job security. My mother fed us, kept a clean home, made sure we went to school, nurtured us when we were sick and would have given her life for us without a second thought. What exactly does Nicole do?
    Today she posted how M is ill with lots of snot and needs the congestion sucked out. That worried me, because she will never reveal exactly how ill a child is. It could be nothing or it could be something. Then she made a weird comment about how this child preferred her over all the others in the family, although he does seem to love playing with one brother in particular. It just seemed to me to be an odd comment. Why would she crow about a baby preferring her? She did add that it was likely because he is still nursing. So in truth the child likes the boobies and not the person.
    One of her commenters suggested that if Nicole had more babies, she could do pregnancy vlogs. Oh dear gawd, no. Just no. Neither she nor Joe are parenting the children have now.
    I stumbled onto the birthing story of one of those kids. J was a mere child and he was tasked with being the birth photographer. There Nicole was, on her hands and knees, popping out a baby and feces at the same time. I realize that it happens. And the birth of a child is pretty amazing. However, I don’t think those pics should be for the whole wide world and certainly not for your other child to be forced to photograph.

  53. Peg,

    I tend to agree. Plants and fungi are the basis of many medications (don’t know percentages here). Fungi are particularly interesting, and I am not speaking of mushrooms per se, but some of the more effective immunosuppressive drugs are devised from fungi. Those medications are used particularly for transplant patients, as I understand it. That alone has saved, prolonged, and improved the quality of life for many.

    I think that plant ID and their multiple uses is actually very interesting. I have done that from a purely hobby perspective. It’s knowledge that can be useful and that can easily be superseded by our modern advancements and lost. I think there is a tendency for anti-government and government conspiracy devotees and Nauglers to try to latch onto old medicine and naturopathic solutions for a sense of self-sufficiency and oversight avoidance. I have to say, though, that the courses I have taken in this stuff were not filled with Grizzly Adams wannabes but rather normal people with jobs, responsibilities and houses. The instructors also were not Grizzly Adams wannabes either and they lived in real houses too, not three-sided lean-to’s or garden sheds. They also advocated vaccinations, Motrin, doctors and hospitals. I have to throw one thing in here. Having been to some fairly extreme wilderness living experiences I have to say the one of the first things discussed was always cleanliness and hygiene for disease prevention and morale. Clean selves, clean clothes, clean cookery. Catholes well away from where you lived, ate, and got water from. We laughed at and wondered why the Naked and Afraid TV show contestants insisted on being absolutely filthy.

  54. I wouldn’t be down on Mrs. Naugler letting her kids live off the wild if she didn’t half-ass it the way she does everything else. I’m pretty darn sure that the only information those poor kids get is via SomeDude and Crunchygal in a subforum of some paranoia group online, except for the times when she finds out here that she is about to let her kids eat toads and goes charging out into the mud to make them let the critters go. If they actually had a copy of a book by Wildman Steve Brill or something like that, and the tools that are needed in order to properly process (say) acorns, they could get a lot of food out of those 2 dozen or so acres without having to do the Dance of Appeasement and Submission to their parents. Eldest son, take heed.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *