Sunny Side Up

BLH solar panels

more about ac

These come from a discussion on BLH about living “off-grid.” I am astonished, frankly, at the level of sheer stupidity that occurs over there. Not because there are people who are curious and who ask questions, but at the level of Nicole’s total stupidity and/or complete dishonesty.

Really, she knows better.

Dave and I have some experience dealing with solar panels. We lived fulltime in an RV (actually two of them, two different times) for several years. We had a solar panel system installed on one of them and did a lot of what RVers call “boondocking.”  That’s parking in a place with no utility hookups. We spent an entire summer in Alaska in that rig and never plugged in once.

Solar panel technology has improved since then, but the basics remain the same. And while costs are down some, they aren’t down all that much.

While it is theoretically possible to run an air conditioning unit with solar panels, it’s not practical and it would be extremely expensive.

ryan

This is Ryan.  Ryan is standing next to his tiny house, that he built himself. Ryan has way more on the ball than the Nauglers, and that is putting it mildly.

Ryan runs an AC unit in his tiny house. See the size?  It’s 150 square feet plus the loft.  For one person.  One.  One person’s body heat.

Ryan spent about $10,000 for the parts to put together his solar panel system.

Read that again. $10K.

And his description of using that solar panel system to run his tiny little air conditioner is enlightening.  We’re talking about very minimal usage here.

Living in our solar-equipped RV,  we became very conscious of how much electricity we were using. Our regulator was located with its face in the interior of the RV (in the kitchen area) so we could see how full the batteries were all the time. And we checked. A lot. Especially after we had a bit of experience with suddenly realizing that the batteries were all discharged and having to turn on the generator.

Our system consisted of three large panels mounted on our roof and three marine batteries.  The entire affair, installed, cost us maybe $1500, maybe a bit more.

It would not run our AC, to put it mildly. It wouldn’t run our microwave. RV refrigerators run on gas when off-grid, with the exception of the indicator lights.  We used a portable catalytic heater (gas) for heat, so never used the on-board heating system (which sucks juice because of the fan).

Essentially, we were using the solar system to power on-board lighting, various indicator lights, the water pump, the television, very small overhead fans (short term use only) and the occasional small electric appliance.

Most of the time, at sundown, we’d have our batteries powered to the max, especially on sunny days. We could watch a movie after dark.  One movie.  No more. We were very careful about lights, and RV lights are tiny things in the first place. I did discover that on a sunny day, I could use my sewing machine all day long without ever reducing the battery storage.

The Naugler’s solar system is something similar to what we had. It won’t do much more than run a few lights for a short while and charge their all-important smartphones. On the night of the Blessed Little Excursion, it was just after dark and the Blessed Little Generator was running full on. Right after dark, to run some Blessed Little Lights.

Dave and I moved out of the RV and bought our place here in Kentucky in the spring of 2008. We did it in part because we began to get very nervous as the real estate market began to collapse. This was before the stock market crash in the fall of that year. We owned several houses at the time and were trying to sell two of them and it was brutal. Nobody knew what was going to happen, of course. There were several reasons why we moved here and the economy was only one of them, but it was a factor.

And we’ve always been interested in using the least amount of energy possible when it comes to fossil fuels. I know perfectly well that if I use less, my little contribution will do exactly nothing to affect the long-term world usage, but what we were really concerned about was our own aging. We don’t want to get to be in our mid-eighties and suddenly be faced with radical lifestyle changes regarding fuel without a clue how to deal with them.

So we moved here to our little farm. We have 20 acres, with a large pasture all fenced. Our house is well insulated and energy efficient. We’ve been here for 8 years.  We turned off the AC when we arrived here and didn’t turn it on again until the end of last summer.

We know how to live without air conditioning, in humid Kentucky, when it’s 100 degrees for several days in a row. We can handle it if we have to. It’s a skill we have learned.

Now it’s learned, and now we know, and now we have everything needed to do it, so we don’t have to do that anymore, so we have air conditioning again.  It’s worth every single penny.

Another thing we did was disconnect our hot water heater entirely. This came about as an experiment. When we bought our wood cook stove, it came with a reservoir that sits at the back and heats water. Initially, we thought we’d never use it much, but we played with it and realized that during the winter, we have a free source of hot water.

cookstove

Here’s my wood stove. The firebox is on the left. The oven is to the right. It’s a full-sized oven, actually bigger than the one in my gas range. That’s one of my canners on it (I was canning something when the photo was taken). The water reservoir is the black rectangular thing in the back.

I wish somebody had explained to me how useful and wonderful these wood stoves are many years ago. They last forever if cared for, and cost about the same as a good plain Jane wood stove, but in addition to heating our entire house (we do not use our heat pump in winter), I also cook and bake on it in winter and we heat our hot water as well. Of course, we had the ideal hearth in place already to put it.

Anyway, we looked that reservoir and decided that it would be neat if we could figure out a way to use that hot water for more than just washing dishes.  So I bought a few of these.

solar shower
click image for link to source

In summer, we put them out on the back deck and they heat up nicely. In winter, we fill them using the wood stove reservoir.  Dave installed a heavy hook in the shower and it works great.

As a result of all this and some other energy-reducing measures, for several years, our electric bill was around $30/month. It’s higher now, even without the a/c, but that’s not because our KWH usage has increased.  It’s because the price per KWH has increased.  And we are seriously considering reconnecting our hot water heater, or perhaps replacing it with a more efficient unit. We get older every year and we already know how to do this if we have to.

Let’s go back to Ryan’s $10,000 for his solar panel setup.  Without our air conditioning, our electric bill currently is about $50 month. Investing $10K in a solar panel setup, for us, is just ridiculous.  At fifty dollars a month, we could pay our electric bill for almost 17 years before we’d spend that much, longer if you factor in the interest we can earn on that $10K.

Yes, our bills are likely going to be higher over time. But Ryan’s solar panels and battery bank are going to require replacement (batteries, especially) and maintenance. Furthermore, Ryan has to fiddle with this stuff all the time. I know.  We’ve lived with it. It means replacing all your current electric appliances (running a conventional refrigerator off solar panels is not practical, nor is running a freezer and we have two of each.)

And Dave and I are old and getting older.  It would be a stupid decision. Electricity is cheap.

If you live in a place where getting electricity is either impossible or horrendously expensive, it might a whole different story. But that’s not what we’re talking about here.  Neither I nor Nicole live in a place like that.

So, now that I have established my credibility, let’s go back to the list on Nicole’s FB page.

hot showers, air conditioning, dishwasher, washing machine, “laundry appliances”, indoor plumbing

Going down that list, one by one.

Hot showers: doable without any solar panels.  Lots of ways to do it, but the simplest is the little portable solar shower I showed above. I have about five of them. You don’t want to heat water with solar panels.

Air conditioning: not practical and very, very expensive.

Dishwasher: for pity’s sake, people. Wash the dishes. I haven’t had a dishwasher for many years. It’s really okay and I have a whole cabinet I get to use. I can’t even imagine somebody talking about going off-grid but demanding a dishwasher.

Washing machine: depending on the model, that would be doable. The hot water to go in it (like the hot water for a dishwasher)  becomes problematic, though. Heating hot water with solar panels is just ridiculous. Nobody does it.  You can build a solar hot water heater (not the same thing as solar panels at all), but we’ve never done that.

“Laundry appliances:” The expression implies dryer.  A clothes dryer is out of the question on a solar panel setup.  I don’t have one and haven’t had one in many years.  In summer, I hang clothes outside.  In winter, I do too if possible, but if not possible, I put them on racks in front of the wood stove.  I even had a clothesline affair that Dave built for me using PVC pipe that hooked onto the back of our RV.

And the answer Nicole gives twice is:

You can have all of that off grid. You just need the solar panels to sustain it.

No, you can’t.  Unless you have unlimited cash and don’t mind throwing it away. And she makes it sound like it’s all so easy.  Just buy some solar panels.

When in discussions like this, Nicole always acts like she’s the authority. She has all the answers. Always. Nobody can tell her anything, and anyone who tries is immediately slammed and/or banned.  Yet when she’s criticized, suddenly they are just “beginners” and they “make mistakes.” Which is it?

They live in a garden shed and run a generator to light it at night. Their place looks like it is in Bangladesh, not the United States. Standing in the weeds up to their chests and with trash strewn everywhere, they remind me of the movie Deliverance. Their Blessed Little Solar Panel setup was donated to them, as was almost everything else they have.  They have spent three years on that land floundering around, and in her own words, “spinning their wheels.”  Only they don’t even have any wheels to spin.  They spend most of their days at their totally on-grid business place. They are the last people on earth to be trying to tell other people how to do this.

 

 

99 thoughts on “Sunny Side Up”

  1. Joe and Nicole have been spinning their wheels and floundering since they arrived in KY. They’ve moved more than the average military family moves in 8 years. She has run more than 2 grooming shops one of which was essentially handed to her on a silver platter along with people willing to be her customers. They were in very good locations as well. Fail…fail…fail…each and every time. Having a man who insists on not working even if someone hands him a job that allows him to be home while his wife works…and yes someone did offer him a job like that and he refused….does not help.
    They will never improve and all one can hope is that as the kids become adults they will take steps to improve themselves that they can’t take at this time.
    Watching them do better is slower than watching grass grow.

  2. Wow. I’m beginning to realize why E. TN is becoming a top retirement place in the country. Our electric this month was $117.. We have 3 br. bath and 1/2, utility room, kitchen, dining and lr area. All rooms are small but we have AC, heat pump, water heater, washer, dryer, dishwasher, frig. and range. We have 1 acre with a creek and woods and can see 2 neighbor’s houses and a church. We have lakes, World Famous Barter Theater a few miles away and Bristol International Raceway (which I could do without)Neighbors are great and share food and canned goods. Was thinking of Fla because my brother is there but rethinking it.

  3. Paul and I crunched numbers once. Solar panels make little sense where we are at. Unless they are grid tied. Wind generators produce more, and make more fiscal sense than solar panels. But even more sense is an outdoor wood furnace. I can heat multiple buildings (including a greenhouse) and have an unlimited supply of hot water in the winter.

    At my daughter’s evil statist public school, they put a whole array of solar panels on the roof. There is a user friendly computer display by the front doors that give all the information from the panels. These are not small, and they do supply the school with a decent supply of electricity, but they cover the entire roof. While school is not in session, the panels supply 100% of the schools needs, as well as producing an income (grid tied) but at best while school is in session, they provide 30%. Much is actually consumed by the well, I’m told, as well as the kitchen in the cafeteria. Its still an awesome experiment.

  4. Wow, thank you for sharing all that information! We try to be as self sufficient as possible and we are trying to learn from others.

    I read the comments on BLH and it is so strange. People say they admire the Nauglers, wish they could raise their family that way, wish they could be self sufficient like the Nauglers. They wish their own kids could have that kind of childhood. ???

    Since when are the Nauglers self sufficient? And what the heck are the Nauglers doing that most Americans can’t do 95 percent of it living in town on the grid?

    If you want to live “off grid” like the Nauglers:

    Stop using electricity and use candles, lanterns or a generator.
    Charge your phone and laptop at work, or buy solar powered chargers.
    Use water you bring home from work instead of using your own tap water.
    Bake things in your toaster oven at work.
    Plant a garden.
    Take bucket bathes.
    Put a little wood stove in the back yard and cook dinner in your frying pan on top of it.
    Put the wood stove in your house in the winter and have everyone sleep in the same room with it.
    Get some chickens in a chicken tractor.
    Let your kids play in the yard.
    Take your family to play in state parks, creeks and lakes.
    Use a bucket as a toilet, dump it in your properly maintained humanure compost in the backyard.
    Homeschool

    Am I missing something the Nauglers do? I mean this as a serious question. Am I just dense and missing something? How are the Naugler’s doing something that a family couldn’t just do where ever they live?

  5. The generator. Some of my more “apocalypse ready” neighbors have them; I decamp to the Hyatt if a power outage lasts more than 24-hours. That’s just me. But how much gas would a generator use if it was running enough to keep the freezer going? And wouldn’t electricity be cheaper? They have a freezer and a few minor appliances; how much do they save by using the generator, especially considering that if it stops running their food risks being spoiled?

  6. After reading this post, the Nauglers take on “homesteading” reminds me of a neighbor who is currently going through an eviction process after being unable to pay rent or utilities the last few months.

    Her electricity was turned off two months ago, so she has been using candles, lanterns and flashlights. She keeps her doors and windows open to allow a breeze through the house since there is no air conditioning. She buys gallons of water and uses them for sponge bathing and to flush the toilet (hey! She’s one up on the Nauglers.) She cooks outdoors on a charcoal grill or gets fast food. She charges her phone in her car or at places where she can plug in a charger. She uses wifi at fast food restaurants.

    Unlike the Nauglers, she values her childrens well being so she sent them to live with their father until she can get back on her feet and provide them with what (in her opinion) are necessary luxuries – running water, electricity, a place they can conveniently and safely prepare food and wash their clothing, bathe, and sleep.

    Her living situation at this time strikingly resembles the Nauglers. Except, she is being evicted and is desperately trying to improve her circumstances for her own sake and the sake of her children. Are the Nauglers homesteading or homelessing?

    This seems a desperate mask and/or excuse for a failed life.

  7. The nogs don’t homeschool…They unschool, but she says they homeschool , depending on the day .. nic answers in dream.mode not reality. Maybe she should have used that 45,000 on a washer dryer, Lord knows whoever is using that public one after her .Probably has a disease.

  8. We have a solar panel on the windshield of our RV to keep at least one of the batteries charged. We have a small generator to run the sluice box and sorter when they’re out for gold.It will run the lights in the RV (a 1979 vintage) but not the a/c. I’ve found that when it’s cold out , a propane lantern will effectively heat the inside of the RV. The appliances are supposed to be gas, but we are pulling that out. I get a good sized chunk of dry ice and it lasts in the fridge for as long as we are gone, and lots of ice with a little rubbing alcohol in the cooler keeps things cold as well.

    The house we lived in before this one had a hot tub but no heat to it. We made a box 12×24 and laid black hosing in it in a pattern, with one hose going to the tub intake and another to take the cold water back to the roof. On warm days we could get the tub in the 80’s, which on a hot day felt great.

    All of the schools in the district my kids went to have solar shade in their parking lots. It generates and income and produces enough power to power the schools. It’s neat to watch them move as the day goes by.

  9. Electricity runs about 14.7¢/kWh (including the distribution charge and the monthly “just cause we can” cost) for me. My largest bill is $118.00 per month and while I wish it were less, that’s not bad for a 2000 square foot house, several people, their gizmos and the need to water the large quadrapeds. Plus our home is wooded. So, while it would be great to get solar panels, it’s not practical.

  10. Excellent writing Sally!
    I wonder how many of the posters on the blh off grid thread realize that the nauglers just have to go to the pet ‘salon’ to get AC, refrigeration, cooking facilities, heat, water, bathrooms, etc . They are lying about their off grid activities. The shed is their ‘second home’ (sarcasm) where they can act like they’re ‘off griding’..(and beg for money and free stuff.)
    It’s their choice to do this and if they have followers willing to give them money, etc., those followers are serious enablers and are being rooked big time.
    …and, as to the mention of Deliverance, that picture in the weeds reminded me of the horror movie, ‘ The Hills Have Eyes’

  11. A 2000 watt generex will go 4.7 hours on a gallon of gas. That should be enough power for a freezer and after everything is frozen you would be able to use the generator for other things. Some people turn off or unplug the freezers for 8 hours at night and swear everything stays frozen. I don’t really sugest it. Another worry with solar/ electricity I learned the hard way is just because something has enough power to turn on doesn’t mean it is working properly and can break down fast like computers and xbox. You have to make sure your getting the watt, amp, and whatever else for the appliance your wanting to use

  12. But how much gas would a generator use if it was running enough to keep the freezer going?

    We lived in NC when a hurricane came through way inland and got us (forget the name, it was in the mid-nineties). Our power was out for a week or more. We were the only people in our neighborhood who had any sort of power at all, since we had a motorhome with a generator. I remember moving out into the RV for the duration, and we had not only a/c, but also television. We also had a chest freezer and so did one of our neighbors. She had the entirety of her summer garden’s veggies in it and was just distraught. They got dry ice for it, but were really worried.

    We discovered that if we hooked our freezer to the generator and ran it for about an hour twice a day, and never opened it, it stayed frozen. So we drove the motorhome over to the neighbor’s house, and parked it in their driveway for a bit and hooked up their freezer to the generator. We did that every day, and ran it for an hour or maybe 90 minutes and saved their frozen stuff.

    So, a freezer is possible on a generator, but the fuel would cost more than the electricity by far.

    At one point in our RV life, we had two generators (on purpose) which we could run singly if all we needed was 20 amp power (no microwave or a/c), but which could be hooked up in tandem to create 30 amp power so we could run an air conditioner. We did this because we were parked at Nathan’s house after his death, getting the house ready for sale. The house was empty. Our home was in the driveway. There was no 30 amp power hookup conveniently located. It was the best solution to a short term problem and the fuel cost about as much per day as a campground would have cost, however, there was no campground conveniently located and we were working almost non-stop on the house.

    It is absolutely not a viable long-term solution to electrical needs.

    I doubt seriously that the Nauglers are using that freezer.

  13. Our electric this month was $117.

    Why is that so great? My electric bill wouldn’t be any higher than yours if I had all that stuff (and I have two refrigerators and two large chest freezers along with a barn and workshop and all the resultant power usage out there). And we have 20 acres. And we have great neighbors that we can barely see unless we want to. And lots of lakes and beautiful gorgeous Kentucky rolling hills and green, green grass. Frankly, I would probably choke if I got a bill for greater than $100.

    We considered TN for about ten seconds, but TN taxes investment capital (not just the capital gains, but the principal) and no way will I pay that.

    But, hey, suggest Tennessee to Nicole. They’d love it, I’m sure of it.

  14. Some people turn off or unplug the freezers for 8 hours at night and swear everything stays frozen.

    It does. Absolutely does.

  15. Generators are very loud. The neighbors must hear it from their property. I would be totally pissed off by that if they live next door to me.
    We have a large family. Until very recently we had ten living in our house. We now have only five of us. I live in the Bay Area in CA. It’s very very expensive to live here. Our PG&E (gas & electric) this last winter was over 400 a month with all ten of us living here. And we have mild winters, no snow. Our house is fairly large 3500+ sq ft. Our water bill up until a month ago was about 300 a month. I can’t imagine how the heck Nicole & Joe think they can have an off grid life style with NO income to speak of. They aren’t even camping. We have lots of homeless encampments around the Bay Area. And guess what? Quite a few look like the Nauglers. I’ve gone out & helped clean up one where the county sheriffs booted them out. It was quite disgusting.

    N&J are totally doing this off grid wrong.
    I would ask a question to her on how cost effective raising goats, chickens, etc is. Of course she never replied. I’d ask about her record keeping. Again no replies. When I saw the picture of the tools out in the elements I knew then that I had given money to a bottomless pit. I wonder how the new tiller will survive. We have two. We take care of them. Of course we worked for the money to buy them. I really wish others on BLH would come to understand that some people (N&J I’m talking to you) don’t appreciate hard work or the money or things you give them. Has anyone noticed that the kids seem to have more new looking tee shirts? Makes me wonder if she buys instead of doing laundry.
    Sally how loud is that generator?

  16. I wondered how loud that generator was even before hearing it on one of their videos. That noise would make me nucking futts.

  17. Sorry, I thought you said your elec bill runs $50/mo without A/C, hot water, range, washer and dryer and I was just trying to point out that for $117 I could enjoy all of that here and prefer to live with it. Yes, Ky. is also beautiful. I don’t know about taxes there but there is no State tax here. I doubt that Nicole would be any happier here as the county government is even more strict about CPS, environment and schooling and while I haven’t scoped it out, I doubt that there is a much demand for dog grooming. They would absolutely not be able to dump human waste on the land.

  18. So many people here (Australia) use clothes dryers, and for the life of me I can’t work out why. We have our great local invention the Hills Hoist (Google it, almost every backyard has one), and plenty of fresh air and sunshine to dry washing. Even in winter.
    Even when I had a toddler and a baby and cloth nappies (diapers) I’d wash them, and hang them out in the bright sunshine, as it’s a great natural disinfectant. I had a drier for emergencies, but hardly used it (I swear I could hear the electricity meter running whenever I did), didn’t like what it did to my clothes, and anyway, nothing smells better than clothes, sheets etc, freshly dried in the sun.

  19. The Nauglers don’t live off-grid. They are basically squatting on land (making a monthly payment) because they became homeless.

  20. Oh and Sally, you mentioned in your comments Frances was in calf. Has she had it yet? Hope everything went fine, and the nursery staff were rostered on to take care of her baby for her once she’d had enough 🙂

  21. I agree with Evangie, re the generator noise. Running it non stop is ridiculous. I am sure they run it constantly when they are home because you hear that horrible generator noise in every video that was filmed near the garden shed, including the vehicular assault fiasco.

    So much for the virgin land “wilderness” when you shack is right beside the road and your generator ruins the peaceful quiet of the countryside.

    The Nauglers are not only polluting the land with their poop, they are creating noise pollution as well. If I was their neighbor, that would make me madder than hell.

  22. Sally how loud is that generator?

    The Naugler’s generator is loud enough to be easily heard from the road. I never got down to the neighbor’s property because Joe stopped us, so I don’t know if it can be heard down there. I would assume so, though, however, I don’t know if that would be loud enough to be annoying. I doubt they run it for hours and hours straight.

  23. Sorry, I thought you said your elec bill runs $50/mo without A/C, hot water, range, washer and dryer and I was just trying to point out that for $117 I could enjoy all of that here and prefer to live with it.

    I have a range, although it’s gas because I prefer gas. There was a nice Jenn-Air stove in here when we bought the place and the first thing we did was remove it. I have a washer. I also have two refrigerators, two freezers, three desktop computers. With a/c it gets up to about $75 maybe, depending on how hot it is. We keep the thermostat on 78 degrees and don’t move it. We aren’t camping. The real figure is this. We use approximately 300 KWH per month, with that figure rising a good bit during the hot summer months. 247 KWH cost us $36.61, last month. (That was because we weren’t home for most of the month.) That’s just shy of $.15 per KWH.

    My point with all this wasn’t to extol the virtues of doing without. There’s no particular heroism in doing so. My point with the personal stories was that we’ve done this stuff and know how to do it and could go back to doing it tomorrow with little effort and zero learning curve. Comforts are. . . well. . .comfortable. And we can pay for them without any problem at all. Our goal was to evaluate our power dependency and figure out how to live without and then put it back judiciously.

    Here’s an example. We have a really, really nice Aladdin oil lamp with a lovely shade. It’s in our living room. We rarely use it. However, it’s there and it works well. It also generates enough light so that if we had an extended power outage, lighting would not be much of an issue.

    The only thing left that we really need to do is put a hand pump in our well. It’s one of those things that we think about only when the power goes out and then there’s no water.

    The investment tax in TN would greatly exceed the state income tax here for us. I checked into all that and scratched TN off our list of possible places to live.

  24. nothing smells better than clothes, sheets etc, freshly dried in the sun.

    I couldn’t agree more. My clothesline is basically like you describe. One of those circular things. Dave also installed a removable thing for me on our front porch so I can hang stuff there and look all Amish if I want to or need extra space.

  25. Oh and Sally, you mentioned in your comments Frances was in calf. Has she had it yet?

    Dave woke me at 2:30 this morning and we spent all night with her. She delivered at about 4 am. Little bull calf, which is mildly disappointing (heifers are worth many hundreds of dollars more), but mother and baby are both doing well and Frances actually has never looked in better condition than she does right now.

    She was delighted and did the motherhood thing for approximately 2 hours, licking her baby and talking to him and it was all terribly sweet. And then she was done. 🙂 She does that. She’s finished pretty much.

    So about 6, we put him in his little pen. He’d had a half gallon of colostrum and promptly took a nice nap. We went and ate breakfast and tried to get some extra sleep.

    When I went to get her this evening for milking, she was way out in the paddock having a conversation with the donkeys. She came readily enough for her dinner and then when she was most of the way to the barn, she remembered that she has a calf and suddenly turned into sweetness and motherhood and wanted me to do a vlog showing her being all attentive. I declined. She sighed and got in her milking stanchion and had her dinner, and then trotted happily back out to the paddock for the night.

    We’re so cruel.

    Oh, and three gallons of colostrum tonight. I froze it (except for the half gallon the baby drank). Imagine drinking a half gallon of milk in about 2 minutes when you’re just over 12 hours old.

  26. Sally I really admire how you’re living. I need to start thinking ahead a little more, I think. I’m 42 and becoming more and more aware of how quickly time goes by. Once I baked a few potatoes in my fireplace for myself and my kids and I felt like Mrs. Ingalls.
    I remain fascinated by watching someone rationalise so consistently. Denial intrigues and also scares me.

  27. Glad Frances and calf are doing well. Shame it wasn’t a heifer, but that’s farming I suppose. And like Nicole, Frances enjoys being pregnant, having a baby to coo over, as long as the nursery staff (you for Frances, and Joe for Nicole) take over once they become too much bother.
    And you’re not cruel. Cruel would be making Frances stay with her calf when she’s not cut out for long term motherhood. Poor Frances didn’t do well at all from what you said.

    I really admire your practical way of looking at everything, as well as your writing style. Clear, concise and to the point. With your all your knowledge and experience, you are the perfect person to tear down the Naugler fantasies.

  28. A very informative post, Sally. I appreciate your knowledge and the wealth of experience you have. It is certainly beneficial to learn the pros and cons from an experienced person, when considering alternative energy sources. Either long term or for short term.

    Yeah, I do not comprehend some of the comments on BLH. I mean, who would romanticize Nicole’s posts, when they lack genuineness? No real information on how it is done, and so on.

    Not that I’ve wanted an off the grid lifestyle. But we had a similar experience a few years ago, BLB. There was a windstorm and some tornadoes, where electricity was out for days. And some people, for over a week. I recall there was one place in the area, a McDonald’s, the only place with electricity. It was an Oasis. We could get something to eat, charge our laptops and phones, and use a flush toilet. However they would pour a big bucket of water to help with the flushing. Thankfully, this was in the Fall, so temps were not extremely hot. We managed, opened up the windows. Used candles at night for light. No hot water. My main source of news and updates was the car radio dialed to a local station. I also kept my phone charged, using the car charger. For a bit, gas stations were inoperable. We had to manage our car usage, and conserve on gasoline. We did drive once to a gas station miles away, and filled up two gas containers to have some on hand. The kids thought it was kind of novel, for a few days. Some people had generators. But I hardly imagine that continually running a generator is really very cost effective. Not for a long term choice, I wouldn’t think. Long story short is that we do know how to manage off-the-grid, in case of emergency.

    I do think though, for someone that desires that lifestyle, one would want careful consideration in what their goal is. Because winging it, may cost you more than what you were wanting to get away from in the first place. For example, running a generator constantly for primarily lights and small electronics and appliances would seem rather non conservative in fuel costs. Electricity would likely be more cost effective.

    Oh and I did a little, just a little, researching solar panels. To convert the house to solar energy, would be costly, very costly up front. It would take years to recoup the initial cost, to where the energy savings would start to be realized.

    Don’t believe someone’s (Nicole’s) romanticizing. If it is too good to be true, it’s probably not true.

  29. After the Great Recession, we are pretty much guaranteed a life of poverty in our old age, but the house and the third of an acre it sits on will at least be paid for. We have a wood stove as well as a forced-air furnace, we weatherized this old house as much as we could with a state grant (ebil gubmint ebilly making us ebilly warm, eh, Nicole?), and I am learning the basics of clothing repair. I’m also slowly increasing the amount of land we have planted with vegetables and berries, trying to master the peculiarities of each type before I add another. I think the next step will either be learning how to make sourdough bread with a sourdough pot or learning how to can our berry crop instead of just freezing it. Making sourdough will require less cash outlay but more daily tedium. On the other hand, fresh warm bread is an instant morale raiser.

  30. I grew up in a small country town in Australia, and the people in the country and surrounding farms are truly the salt of the earth, with a wealth of knowledge and experience, as well as a wealth of practical assistance in the form of tools and machinery. I imagine people around the Naugler’s area are the same. The accents may be different, but still the same can-do, helpful country people are always around.
    If Joe and Nicole had been honest, and wanted to work hard, I have no doubt they would have received mountains of advice, practical assistance and even the odd side of beef or few dozen eggs here and there. That’s what country people do. And the Naugler’s would be in a much better place than they currently are. By now, with their neighbours advice, they could have had a large garden and canned/bottled their own produce, and/or be living in a decent, albeit basic, warm cabin.
    Unfortunately, Joe and Nicole are antisocial, lazy, nasty people who don’t want to put in the hard work on the land and have the nerve to cry persecution and abuse their neighbours instead, because that nets them quick dollars. Quick dollars disappear quickly, while hard work with the right advice, gains you a skill for life. Too bad they are too shortsighted to see that.

  31. I would like to go off the power grid, but we live in one of the least sunny cities in the entire US. The next seven days are supposed to have three overcast days. That’s all day. The sky is only dark about four hours, which you may thing would be great for solar, but not when you only have any sun at all for about 40% of the year, and half those might be only peeks of sun through clouds. I was also wearing a turtleneck and heavy wool coat yesterday. That tells you about the weather.

    So I guess my answer to
    “I wouldn’t mind living off grid but, _________.”
    What’s stopping you?

    Would be that there’s not enough sun to make solar feasible, and even if it was, we can’t afford to spend $100k on solar panels like one of my husband’s friends did (who is now regretting it because the monthly payments are so much more than paying on-grid which isn’t bad since our power comes from hydroelectric generation and windpower).

    I kind of want them to move out to Washington, maybe get lost in the eastern part of the state where there are hardly any people. See how they like not getting sun for more than half the year.

    Also I don’t want to give up internet. It feels disingenuous to say you’re off the grid when still relying on cell towers on the grid. Connecting via wireless is still connecting.

    Sally, question about that wood stove. Do you think it could heat a three-story house? Our heating bills are bonkers in the winter, about $300, even when only heating the rooms we’re in, and I’d like to find a way to cut that. We have a mosaic’d-over spare hearth that we’ve been wanting to do something with.

    The washing machine made me laugh. Our house came with a super fancy machine. The place we lived before buying had one too, but I usually wash by hand. If I’m rinsing off anyway, may as well give a quick wipe with a soapy cloth.

  32. My off-grid experiences come from when I was a kid. Once or twice a summer, we’d go camping for 2-3 weeks at a time. We went far into the foods, and camped by whatever nice creek we could find. We’d take a day or two of food, but beyond that, it was what we foraged or hunted (legally). Leaves were toilet paper (there were some soft ferns that weren’t so smeary), our food and water boiled over a campfire made from fallen branches, though sometimes I’d drink the creek water straight since it’s so purely tasteful that it’s like the water of life. Showers would be heating up water over a fire, putting it in this bag with a spout, going far enough from camp to have some privacy, strip, quick shower, change into other pair of clothes, done. Wash first set of clothes in the creek, though without soap. Let the river water clean. Hang to dry on a branch for after the next shower. We slept on the ground in the tent, no mats. That’s cheating. We did cheat in one way.

    When we went camping in winter, which we did for about a week at a time, we took a propane stove and those heat packs that you put in your shoes and hands, and MREs. The red beans and rice was my favorite, and the chocolate-covered graham every box had. And Tang. Always Tang with melted snow. Otherwise, we still tried hunting, though bathing…yeah, when there’s 2′ of snow on the ground, bathing can kill you.

    I did have a close encounter with a bear one summer, raiding camp. Instead of trying to make noise and piss of and threaten the bear, I plopped my ass on the ground and pulled my gun into my lap instead of keeping it on my back. I knew where to shoot, if I had to. But I posed no threat. He looked my way a couple times, them lumbered off. At that time, I didn’t know people could be scared of bears. I found out when I told my mom when we got back, and she nearly murdered by dad because she was terrified of bears and why didn’t someone shoot it? Well, it wasn’t threatening me. Big cats made me nervous, though I never encountered one of those. I would have shot it to keep it from stalking and eating me. But I was never in that position, thank goodness.

    Okay, so this is more hard-core survival stuff, but my Eagle Scout dad wanted to make sure we kids could survive if anything happened, which extended to girls just as much as boys, and we did learn to adapt things we did camping to how to be comfortable during power outages. Except no hunting. We’re in a city. We have pantries for food, and manual can openers.

    It was very hard, very fun, and I miss it so much.

  33. “Why is that so great? My electric bill wouldn’t be any higher than yours if I had all that stuff (and I have two refrigerators and two large chest freezers along with a barn and workshop and all the resultant power usage out there).”

    We live in a very expensive state for a lot of things (including electricity) and that is great – the month we use the most electricity was 951 kWh. No, moving to KY is not an option at this time as I most assuredly wouldn’t get a job in my (specialized) field. Plus having a Resident Adolescent who hasn’t ‘quite’ gotten the message that anything ON = it ¢0$t$ plus the hubby who also doesn’t seem to get it or it would be a lot less. I pay the bill, so it’s yet another “I don’t pay it so it must be free!” bills for my husband. I pay a lot of bills that he doesn’t seem to realize exist. Resident Adolescent is pretty good about turning things off but not as much as the kid will be in the future when presented with a bill. Even the First Born Child learned something about it and that kid is pretty savvy. Nothing like a surprisingly big bill in your name alone! I wish my husband were half as aware of the need to turn things OFF as the kids… Good thing I love him. Most of the time. 😉

    I live in a high-cost state and my groomer is in a high-cost area (Montgomery County Maryland). The one time I noted prices for services at N’s business, they were not significantly lower than what I pay here. It sounds as though they should/could be simply due to the lower costs of electricity, water and possibly taxes in the county in which she has the business. Of course I don’t know that to be the case.

  34. “I have a range, although it’s gas because I prefer gas”

    I prefer gas too but there are no gas lines in this area and I don’t wish to lug propane all over the place. So our house is entirely fueled by electric. It’s a rancher which has advantages (everything on one level which makes aging in place a bit easier) and disadvantages (it sprawls and the heating is a bit patchy). We heat it with wood in the winter as we have all these trees and when one comes we either leave it to rot or cut it up, dry the wood and use it in the wintertime. The months when our electrical use is below 400 kWh are the ones where I quietly sip my coffee and feel smug. Those are the months when “all” the neighbors average electrical use goes spiral up over 2400 kWh.

    I love hanging clothes on my clothesline. I’m waiting for a load to finish washing right now so it can go out. Sunshine is a disinfectant and every time I hang a load out I feel very smug about my investment portfolio. I invest in utility companies but I prefer if others use them.

  35. Sally, this was my favorite blog entry so far. Great info and comments from all. Thanks! (Although I’m sill not converting to the clothes line after a childhood spent freezing from hanging lines and lines of diapers. I love my dryer and thank it weekly. alrhough I still do throw out a few heavy bits now and then.)
    I laughed when I read about the generator use. That is the most expensive source of electricity, and mind numbing noise. At the end of work days that is THE major relief when that damn thing is cut off. Presently solar here is a break even proposition. It takes about 10 years to break even and by then you are back to shelling out about the same as the initial investment in repair and replacements. (We have about 5/7 days of sun and live in a moderate cimate.). Son has certs and experience building green commercially, and that is the current situation, both commercially and resi. The power co knows what they are doing.
    But besides solar there are many other active and passive solutions that financially help. They put a “green roof” on a local college, and glass wall systems and water collection systems are pretty standard now. The data is still being collected, but so far they help. There are many alternatives for the serious minded. Hells bells, the N’s could have built a sweet solar porch/greenhouse with free or nearly free old windows if they were honest and had two willing workers. The list is endless what they ‘coulda done’ to easily and vastly improve the Sstead. Your description of the trash and grass says it all. Normally we’d all just walk away and let them perish in their own stuff, but the kids… well we all know her game.
    NN’s only expertise is living in squalor and selling BS to the willing.

  36. Nicole wants her children to believe they are living the “free” life and that they can have anything they want living the way they do. Dishwasher? Sure, if she wanted to get a solar powered one. College? Sure, if you teach yourself what you need to be accepted to college.

    The Naugler’s “free citizen” beliefs are just like a religion where parents subject the children to being raised in a dogmatic, oppressive home life. The children have no real independence or free thought.

    How can Nicole claim her children are free and independent when their parents have taught them to oppose public school, boy scouts, boys and girls club, church, etc.

    Even if she offered those choices, her kids will make choices they think will make their parents proud. How could their kids ever say they thought voting was a good idea, or having car insurance made sense, or anything their parents didn’t believe in?

    Just from the videos the Nauglers have shared about encounters with the police, I feel sorry for the emotional abuse her children must endure on a daily basis. Can you imagine the ranting those poor kids have had to listen to about the government and ignorant people that follow the government?

    Nicole, when you work so very hard at letting your kids know what sort of person you hate and think is stupid, how could your children ever choose to be one of those people?

    There was a turning point in my thinking of the Nauglers. It was the recording of Joe telling the kids to “sit down if you are a Naugler” and telling them that their mom was arrested and they would be kidnapped the next day. He was focused on the government’s evilness, but not at all on the needs and feelings of his children. He is so obsessed with his ideology that it supersedes love and compassion for his children. That kind of parenting is so emotionally abusive that the Naugler children may sadly never be able to forgive their parents for it.

  37. I need to amend my post. At this point after having seen the N parents given so many opportunities “I” would walk away from this sick saga if not for the kids.

  38. After the Great Recession, we are pretty much guaranteed a life of poverty in our old age

    This was our fear as well.

    It has not materialized, but there was no way to predict back in 08.

    One thing we’ve learned from all this is that as we age, it’s a good idea to get on the ball and get infrastructure in place that will allow us to continue doing what we like to do for as long as possible. That means sturdy handrails, for example, and stout fencing that won’t need scads of maintenance. We’re also ripping up all our carpet and putting in wood flooring and ceramic tile to lessen maintenance, and we’re going to do it now while we can do it ourselves.

    We spent a couple of years re-doing the barn interior and have it now pretty much so that we can manage it. We rearranged hay storage so it’s not in the loft (that means neither of us have to get on a ladder and go up there). Lots of stuff like that.

    We look at everything now and say, “Can one of us manage this alone? What about when we’re eighty?”

    Eventually, this place will become too much for us, but we want to extend our time here as long as we can.

  39. Do you think it could heat a three-story house?

    It would be iffy. Our house is 1500 square feet, one story. I bet it would heat a two story house if it wasn’t too large. I was skeptical about its ability to do this one when we bought it, but the stove’s location faces the hallway, and if it is really cold we add a small fan (which we couldn’t do if the power was out). The firebox is very small, and doesn’t look like it would do the job at all, but it does.

    Heat rises, and it’s for certain it would cut the bill in half at least, maybe more. FWIW, we rarely have to stoke the fire up to maximum during the whole winter, except when it’s really, really cold.

    Here’s something similar to ours. That’s approximately what we paid for ours, but it’s not the same company or model.

    Here’s a version of ours. Not identical, but same company and general design. The front is identical. You can see how small the firebox is – it’s to the left. The door below it is the ashpan. The one to the right is the oven. We bought it from a local Mennonite store called Misty Mountain Sales. It cost less from them than online. Quite a bit less.

  40. It has always been Joe and Nicole before their children. From the first moments in this “viral” version of the sordid tale. The adults knew that charges had been brought against Joe. They knew that CPS wanted to talk with the witnesses to the crime. They knew a report had been made to CPS regarding the welfare of the children in the stick enclosed 3 wall shack.

    What did they choose to do? Did Joe turn himself in? Did they let CPS talk to the kids? No they fled the homestead. When found they stated that they’d been at a friend’s BBQ or whatever and decided to stay awhile (days). They knew, remember that. After they’d been found they claimed they just wanted a lawyer to be present. They knew, remember that. When were they going to get around to finding that lawyer? Was everyone to wait until it was convenient for them? They knew that’s not how it works, that’s why they weren’t home, IMHO. I know a lot of people believed this tale of theirs, but you can see how the authorities, who have heard it all before and this just wasn’t that original a tale, might have been just a bit suspicious.

    When the authorities did their job, how did the parents react? Did they soothe their children’s fears? Or did they scream about police shooting people, “that’s what they do”, and about the kids being kidnapped? I guess that the real definition for reverent when Joe says it about his children, scared witless.

    What did Joe do? He could have gone to Jail for withholding the children and upholding his rights. He didn’t. He sacrificed his children at the altar of his ideology. Turned them in bright and early and then went about his day fundraising and rabble rousing online with his loser buddies. Calling in the militia, not calling in the militia-wink, wink, callers, letter writers, protestors to storm the sheriff’s Facebook page, the news channels Facebook pages, pimp the story to “more than just the fringe st fringe web sites”, patrol the Internet for dissenters, oh yeah and show up at the courthouse (that was a flop but the Internet thing went well for a few days). Meanwhile the children are in state custody, but hey Joe is free. NIcole soon free.

    Okay, the children have been removed. What’s the first things the parents do. Online fundraising and online ranting. Do they work with CPS and run to comply with the recommendations or do they choose to get online and ask people to give them excuses why they shouldn’t have to comply.

    As far as I am concerned, the children were traumatized by the acts of their own parents in this. The parents chose ideology over their children, (unless, of course, it meant putting the parents putting their own butts on the line in that case they didn’t). Eventually, the parents began to comply, albeit minimally in my opinion. That eight weeks away in foster care, that, as far as I am concerned was the parents doing. Guess it’s easier to sell your children down the river from the confines of an air conditioned hotel room and swimming pool. Don’t even get me started on what happened to the poor abandoned animals on the homestead.

    Still, the children are not stupid. They will figure it all out. I have faith in them. Children: There are good people, there are bad people and there is everyone else. You will learn the difference and you can choose to be good people (it’s easier and happier, I promise you). Your life is what you choose it to be. Choose wisely, choose with reckless abandon, life is beautiful and you have long ones in front of you. You can be anything you want to be, you’ll just have to work harder than some, but not as hard as others. There is a world of people out here who really care and wish you the best life has to offer. Create yourselves into someone you can hold your head high about. Be what you admire, what makes you happy.

    All my opinion, based on my observations and experience.

  41. I see NN went on a long winded post about Sally & her son again on her public fb, I am sorry she goes after you on the loss of your son so much. It shows how insecure and deranged she is.

  42. Amendment #2 to my post. Forget my over zealous post about building a porch/greenhouse. These two lazy good for nothing Naugler parents couldn’t even figure out how to build a forth wall for the stick shack and instead chose to cram their young children in a van during the freezing winter and drape plastic tarps over a decrepit animal pen. What was I thinking! Sunday charitable lapse on my part, sorry.
    Teaching her kids to hate and fear is Nicole’s most frequent unschooling ambition and she practices it online everyday. Lisa, I sincerely hope your encouraging words are read by the Naugler children and believed as true and genuine to counter the daily hate infusement from Nicole Naugler.

  43. I may not comment often on here but I read it most days. (Along with various facebook pages since I got pulled into the rabbit hole!) I find this blog in particular, informative and I do not think that it is a bully blog.
    I have to say that this latest post from Nicole is yet another display of just how despicable a person she is. Any tiny bit of sympathy that I may sometimes have for her has just disappeared.
    It is one thing to disagree with what someone writes about you and to throw your dummies out of the pram about it. But to use the death of someones child is the lowest of the low. There is NO reason or excuse for sinking to that level.
    Mard arsing about being bullied because you have been called out as a liar is not going to change peoples perception about you – quite the opposite.
    I will watch who comments on the facebook post with interest. From what I have seen so far she has very little support on the personal page other than her sock accounts, her guard dogs and a few people who seem to attempt to point out that what she has put is perhaps not the best thing to do.

    For Sally – keep on with this blog as not only does it keep things real, it also pisses off the real “bully” in all of this. She can’t delete this blog which gets under her skin despite what she says.

    For Nicole – since you clearly read this blog – you are a seriously sad and disgusting human being.

  44. Regarding Nicole’s latest post going after Sally and the loss of her son:
    This post demonstrates a few things:
    1) This is textbook narcissistic behaviour. — Using the loss of a human being as a way to hurt someone is an unbelievably shallow, heartless, ignorant, and manipulative thing to do.
    2) It shows her inability to see context. — Not acknowledging the inherent agency in all human beings (including those with addictions and mental health issues) is played out every day in the way she limits the agency of her own children. She lives under the misguided delusion that she can control everything and everyone around her and this will somehow be possible in perpetuity. Life doesn’t work that way.
    3) It exemplifies her bizarre belief that children are chattel–property. They are human beings and they are going to make their own choices in life. You will not be able to control that forever unless you break your children’s will so badly that they remain reliant and trapped in the codependent web you are obsessed with maintaining.
    4) That she would use this tragedy for her own gain simply proves her opportunism and self-centered approach to life. It doesn’t matter who she uses or steps on or hurts, as long as she gains somehow. (As far as I know this isn’t very ‘Christian’)
    5) Our children are human beings and they are not simply extensions of us (see: narcissism). If our kids do well, we can be proud of them for their accomplishments. If they suffer and struggle, we do what we can to help them for *their sake* not because they need to perform in a certain way for our benefit. If they suffer illnesses in life or make choices that harm them, we mourn, we grieve, we live with a new reality that nobody who has not suffered in this way will ever understand.

    Nicole, you are a small, sour woman. Your opinions on the profound experiences others go through are as meaningful as the opinions of a gnat. I hope, for your kids sake, that you learn some humility and you realise that your coldness and self-obsession is harming them in ways you will not ever truly know. Your kids will see (or have seen) what you have typed publicly to a mother who has lost a child. What lessons do you think this is teaching them? (and before you think–“it teaches them to stand up to bullies”–you have brought someone into this story who cannot speak for himself and never will be able to, that is worse than ‘bullying’–that is pathological).

  45. I’m sorry too, Sally, that you continue to be attacked. The Nauglers are threatened by the visability and truth of your blog. They don’t like that many disbelieve and mock their stories, object to their actions, and have opinions on their parenting.

    Instead of taking care of their family, building a life on the land and in the community, and staying out of trouble with authority, the Nauglers continue trying bullying to intimidate and silence. It hasn’t worked yet.

    Take care, Sally. Have a great day!

  46. Whoosh… That was close. I almost posted on Nicole’s public FB.
    Fortunately, before I bit, I realized that Nicole’s rant was just nasty, malicious, vile bait.
    That says a lot about the “cracks in Nicole’s brain”.

  47. Sally,

    As always my heart goes out to you. You are in my thoughts and no one can tarnish your fond memories or your fearless spirit. As a mutual friend oft says “fuck em”.

    Magenta I found your post concise, on point, fascinating and enlightening.

  48. NN delights in the pain of others. She is full of venom & strikes only at those who dare give her some constructive criticism. If she just calmed the heck down & actually read the things on here about gardening, energy self-sufficiency, or animal husbandry she might actually DO something…..but you know, they have plans.

    Sally–I’m so sorry. You do not deserve any of her vile words. How can a mother attack a mother who lost her child???? No one attacks her for her miscarriages.

  49. A few thoughts. First, Sally, I hope you’ll consider an on-demand hot water heater (if you have propane). I lived with one for five years and it was awesome. It was good for one use at a time (if one spouse was doing dishes, the other spouse could not take a shower), but I much preferred it to a hot water heater. At the time we were using a cistern (filled once or twice a week by the water truck guy). Having instant hot water at the faucet or in the shower saved us so much water.

    About the Naughler’s being off grid. Surely they are close to a power pole, because the close-by neighbors have electricity and there are people further up the road. To me, it makes no sense in their situation to not have electricity, and bringing in a power pole to their shed would have been the best use of the Go Fund Me $$. It can’t be cheap to run a generator, which is also noisy. Electricity is THE threshold utility: heating, cooling, light, power a water pump, power electronics, a cooktop, really, it’s the only sane thing to do when you have a bazillion children — I’ve lost count of the actual number.

  50. Sorry Sally you do not deserve this.

    As before Nicole does crap like this when a court date is getting near. She has a pattern and follows it. She has to make some one else out to look bad along with getting the kool aid drinkers rallied up on her side. Guess she has not learned that behavior cost her supporters each time she does it.

    I also have hope for the kids like Lisa does. I grew up with a vile mother. As a child and for many of my adult years I love my mother cause she was my mother and that is what is suppose to be done, so I thought. I will admit that as I aged the love was less and less especially after I figured out all the abuse over the years I got as a child.

    Nicole has to remember that those kids will grow up and they will realize what she has done and will continue to do. My hope for Nicole is that some of the kids give it back to her ten fold. Then she will see what she has put her own mother through. My money is on the little rebel daughter.

  51. I am sorry she goes after you on the loss of your son so much.

    It’s all she can find.

    What she doesn’t understand is this. I am an atheist. We don’t do the “forgive seventy times seven” thing. We don’t even have to do the forgive once thing. We don’t even feel slightly guilty for not forgiving someone.

    Am I capable of forgiveness?

    Sure.

    But to get it from me, I have to see remorse.

    I don’t see remorse.

    I don’t forgive. And I don’t forget. Ever.

  52. I hope you’ll consider an on-demand hot water heater (

    We have two portable ones and I like them very much. One powers an outdoor shower that Dave built (this is a working farm and we are often dirty). I have looked into it for the house, and decided that the electric ones are not efficient. However, I am seriously considering gas. We used them in Europe (lots of folks have them over there) and they are great.

    Surely they are close to a power pole

    So close the power lines run right over their property and they bitch about it.

  53. Sorry Sally you do not deserve this.

    Thank you all for the kind words. I would add something.

    Nicole is seriously mistaken about several things- in fact, about nearly everything she said. The stuff about Nathan is just so much bullshit. She can’t hurt him, and his website music sales spike every time she does this. But the provable stuff involves my Facebook friend list. My FB friend list is set to private. I am the only person that can see it. Even if you’re my FB friend, you can only see mutual friends. It’s been that way for about two years, and I set it that way because people involved in the other blog were attacking my FB friends and I thought that was simply not fair for me to open them up to that. This was long before I ever heard of the Nauglers.

    My FB page otherwise (with the exception of a few photos) is pretty much public. Not only are the vast majority of my posts public, but I allow comments from anyone. So just because somebody comments on something on my page does not mean I know them, or that they are my FB friend.

    I do not know Todd Pate’s mother-in-law. I never heard of her. I do not know Todd Pate, or Todd Pate’s wife, or his dog. I do not know anyone at the Breckinridge County health department. She is simply lying about this. Two minutes on my Facebook page and she would know that she cannot see my friend list.

  54. Nicole Naugler. Just. Such. A. Loser.

    Can do nothing authentic (except produce offspring for labor and neglect). Cannot handle truth, reality, doing the things that could have made her plethora of plans succeed. Instead she just reliably fails on an Olympic-sport scale. Cannot handle the kindest of suggestions of how to do better. Enables her very-successful-at-being-worthless husband in whatever he occupies his time with. Even fails at trying to belittle other people. Utterly fails her children. One day this Naugler mess will serve as an inspiration for a nasty disgusting cartoon with flies orbiting the principal characters.

  55. Sally,

    Nicole throw everything she had at you today. But what she does not understand is how strong you are. We readers see your strength, character and wisdom though your writing. Your a natural born leader a classy lady….everything Nicole is not.

    You and your family are in my thoughts.

  56. I read NN’s FB post, and while I have until now been a lurker on this blog, I can’t help but comment on this.

    She is a vile person, and this shows it. Too bad she won’t post stuff like this on the grooming page so that everyone can see the blackness of her soul.

    And the sheer IRONY of a woman whose children were removed from her care for two months because she failed to provide the basic necessities of life (and only got said children back due to the generosity of strangers) criticizing anyone else’s parenting – oh it just kills me.

    Calling someone else a bully while simultaneously blaming them for the death of their child – that’s really rich. If she wasn’t so disgusting I’d laugh at her.

    If I were Sally, posts such as this from Nicole would only make me more determined to maintain the blog.

  57. I was so disgusted and angry that I almost posted on Nicole’s page, but I didn’t want to give her the opportunity to respond with more of her poison. All she has to attack you with is lies and what she has conjured up in that sick little mind of hers. What a lowlife, vile woman! Sally, I am so sorry she did that to you. It goes to show how evil she really is.

  58. She is nasty mean. Everytime she pulls this she just shows she has no compassion or empathy and more people see she dosent deserve theirs.

  59. I was disgusted to read Nicole’s revolting post on your parenting skills, or supposed lack thereof. The irony of Nicole criticising anything related to parenting really burns. Unfortunately, she has chosen to use the death of your beautiful boy as your supposed Achilles heel, but take heart, we all saw through it, as no doubt did many others. She can’t control this website, and so she is trying her darnedest to hurt you, no matter how low she has to stoop to achieve that.
    Unlike Nicole who is yet to do anything notable beyond basic bodily functions, Nathan achieved a lot in his life and has left this world magnificent legacy with his music. The world is a better place for having seen Nathan Davis, and I have absolute respect for you and Dave, even though I have never met you, as his loving parents who allowed him to pursue his dream, and encouraged his musical ambitions.
    Don’t let her get to you, she isn’t worthy of your attention.

  60. Sally I myself, am sorry for the loss of your son, and how Nicole attempts to spin it. However, that is all she can do. She has no power. Even the police laugh at her when she calls to file a complaint. She is unable to fix her own train wreck of her life as well as that of her children. Her life is spinning out of control right now and there is not a damn thing she can do about it. Well, actually there is, but she won’t do a damn thing about it. I guess she thinks if she can hurt you that will stop you lol. However Sally, what she fails to see is that you are a strong woman. By trying to discredit you and your son’s death, she only makes you stronger in your resolve to expose the type of people she and Joe are. More power to you Sally!!

  61. Nicole’s behavior when she is under pressure, has no control over her future, or is held to account for her actions (aka she doesn’t get what she wants) tend to be very…what’s the word…infantile. Her vitriol is just the temper tantrum of a two-year old, teenager, and a jealous failure in the body of a nearly 40-year-old woman. But the wacky abandon that she uses online caused me to wonder what her children experience when she doesn’t get her way. Can’t be good.

  62. Being able to responsibly handle finances is not a Naugler adult strong suit, as evidenced by the multiple displays of dollar store type trinket purchases.

    Electricity costs in Breckinridge County are some of the lowest in the nation at $0.0976650 per KWH, there is a base charge of $0.572 per day and a 3% school tax and fuel surcharge of 0.0054581 attached to that, there are also credits from the Rural Economic Reserve that lower the bill. My bill for 4/23/16-5/23/16 was a whopping $80.11, for 30 days of a total electric 1200 square foot home, heating or cooling to a temperature of 70 degrees 24 hours a day, washer dryer, water pump, refrigerator,chest freezer, lights, cooking and baking, television’s, etc. I’m comfortable, I have running water when I need or want.

    A portable generator is approximately 1.3 gallons of gas for 9 hours at half load, bare minimum, one or two lights, small appliance, small fan or charge a couple of devices. At the current local price per gallon of $2.21 it would cost approximately $86.19 per 30 day period for bare minimum usage for 9 hours a day not 24.

    Math is hard.

  63. And once again Nicole uses death to get her supply of attention. Be it good or bad it’s impossible for her to function without a constant supply of attention. In the past I’ve seen her (or her sock) post a recent obituary of someone’s mother and taunt and attempt to ridicule a poster, pictures of a poster’s. newborn sadly lost in infancy and Sally’s son, now for the second time.
    This is Nicole Naugler and her need for attention when the pressure is on. This is how low she will go for her fix. It is her “drug” and with her ever present illness her depraved mind will seek out ways to attain this. Her last attack on Sally, she clearly stated she did it because she wanted it to “sting”. She wants to hurt others and deliberately and sadistically does so. It is who she is and how her very sick mind operates. Her children have no doubt seen and felt this through her countless hours on the internet constantly trying out new ways to stir up controversy and attention focused on her. She is not doing anything for her children, they “freerange”, her label for complete and profound neglect, imho, while she idles away her life seeking her impossible to satiate need for attention.
    She is so envious of Sally’s talents, strength and intellect, and her incredibly talented son she can’t stand it.
    I’m so sorry for all who have had to endure Nicole Naugler’s sadistical attempts to supply her with attention through the death of a loved one. It’s a pattern she goes to when the pressure is on. Court is tomorrow.

  64. Another Resident,
    I don’t think the Nauglers are “off grid” for the normal reasons. I think they just couldn’t pay the electric bill. Their utilities probably kept being shut off for being past due and then reconnect fees would have been added on to the bill. I used to read her old blog and they lived in normal houses but didn’t have electricity.
    They probably also didn’t like the pesky utility workers who came into their yard to read the meter (and would see the dirty yard and muddy, unsupervised kids roaming the neighborhood and maybe call child welfare).

    I know this has been said soooo many times. But gosh darn it, Nicole, you. are. not. off. grid.

    Quote from Nicole on BLH :
    “Off Grid simply means not connected to the grid. The grid being an interconnected network for delivering utilities from suppliers to consumers. I find it interesting so many think it’s more than that. You can have a septic and a well and be off grid. You can have generators, wind power, geothermal or solar power for electricity.”

    So by your own definition Nicole, you are not off grid. Your source of drinking water comes from a faucet and you are dependent on the oil industry for power and driving to work and the lake.

    If the U.S. infrastructure went out long term, you would just have to hope someone would sell you water from their well for eleven people.
    And I personally don’t see how a generator is really considered off grid. Sure you don’t have wires coming from the utility pole to your house. But you have no way to produce power without using the utility system the oil industry and gas station are using. So public utilities aren’t technically connected to your house but you are still using them and dependent on them. Or are they not part of an interconnected network for delivering utilities from suppliers to consumers?

  65. Oh Nicole, poor little Nicole. She tried so hard to shift negative attention away from herself onto Sally. Trouble is, and this is somewhat speculative to some degree, the only person she can write about with any real depth and sense of actions and consequences is herself. She has no interest in any other person beyond getting attention. She, unfortunately, doesn’t like the miserable disaster that is her life and her children’s lives so she projects that which is true and accurate about herself onto someone else. That someone else sees beyond the hashtag, voluntarism, anarchism, and hypocrite spin and isn’t afraid of Nicole or her Facebook feces-flinging. Drug use, given Joe’s posts, behavior and reputation, is likely far more prevalent in Nicole’s children’s lives. Abuse, in whatever multiple forms (scant housing, no sanitation, being withheld from education and socialization to point out the obvious ones) are certainly more prevant in her children’s lives and originate from her.

    Nicole’s MO: her accusations and diatribes are really autobiographical. That is only my opinion, but it is based on having had an eye on the Nauglers for several years now. Nicole may not have lost a child, but it doesn’t stretch the imagination very far at all to see the scenario she described of chronic abuse, ignoring a child’s welfare, etc. turning into an autobiographical tragedy for herself.

  66. Another Resident, thanks for the local figures.
    Petroleum generation of electricity is the most costly way to go in most places. Another factor in cost analysis is initial outlay and the constant depreciation of the life a generator. And for “off grid” and “Mother Earth” proponents, the byproducts of gas generators discharged into the atmosphere are not good. Add to the costliness of this form of power generation: the initial outlay, noise level, lack of reliability and minimal power generation as detriments except for short emergency usage.

    So why didn’t they hook up?
    The pressure to deliver a steady income of less than $80./mo?
    The the initial cost to run a line from the overhead pole to a box ( not much ) , and then professional costs to run the lines in the shack? In the long run still this is not as expensive as long term petrol generation.
    The inspection required from the county when hooking up? (Not a big deal if you are above board)… (May have been a big deal for Nauglers.)
    An outstanding unpaid bill from the power co.?
    The above parlayed into a phoney sales pitch as “living an off grid lifestyle” is my estimation.
    I think the only people who believe this phoney baloney “off grid” BS are the Naugler kids aged under five, and a handful of her loyal humpers. Jeez it must be well over 100 most times now in the S -shack. Pity the poor kids, especially the babies who are so susceptible to heat.

  67. Sally,

    I’m terribly sorry for the vile and vindictive comments by NicNog. It speaks to her desperation and says nothing about you or the memory of your son.

    Now, on to pests/trash/failsteading/whatever. NicNog posted a video of one of the kids adorably playing with bugs. However, there is something very sinister in that video. A monstrosity; a vector for disease hidden in the weeds. Is it feces? Maybe, but that’s not what I’m talking about. The thing to which I refer is a tire. Yes, a tire. I will leave it to the words of one of my favorite fictional characters, Virgil Flowers, to explain, because he does it so much better than does the CDC.

    ——
    Before he left, Virgil gave Purdy and Alewort a lecture on tires and tire swings.

    “You see this?” he asked. “You know what this is?”

    “A tire swing?” Alewort guessed.

    “Good guess, but wrong,” Virgil said. “It’s a mosquito hatchery. If you were to hire a really expensive engineer to design a mosquito hatchery, he’d spend a couple million bucks and come up with a used tire. They are sturdy, they are protective—no mosquito fish, no purple martins getting in, no bats—they collect water, and because they’re black, they absorb the sun’s rays and keep the water warmer than it might otherwise be. Unless you’re in the middle of a drought, you cannot find a tire laying out on a riverbank or hanging from a tree that doesn’t have water inside it, and mosquitoes.”

    “Well . . . thank you for that,” Purdy said. “I’ll keep it in mind.”

    -John Sandford, Deadline

  68. I just went to personal page & posted re: her vile post on your son. I requested her to return my money I have last year (she had offered to a while back). She is comes across a vile on FB. I don’t support vile people. Not ever.

    I am sure my comment will be deleted & I will be blocked.

  69. content://media/external/file/7570

    The governments of Idaho, Wyoming and Nevada make you evacuate into a bucket and haul your own waste to a putrid pile that is covered by a tarp in 90 degree heat? Cancelling my vacation plans now… I live in central Ohio. It is blazing hot outside……can you imagine the smell of a pile containing 3 years of waste from 11 people?

  70. Jjdnora, she has said she will return your money if you send proof of donation and give her your PayPal info. I seriously doubt she will return the money. Keep us posted lol.

  71. Can Nicole provide even one picture of her children that these dangerous trolls have taken while standing on her property line ? No. Because no one has actually done that. But it sure makes a good story to explain the Nauglers upcoming abandonment of the homestead. Poor dears, all they want to do is live privately in peace. With an online following. While not following any laws if they can help it.

  72. At some point J and N probably skipped out on a hefty electric bill from a previous address and shafted the local electric company. Even if they wanted electricity, I doubt they could come up with the cash for a past bill and the deposit for a new hook-up.

    It just pisses me off when she says they live off-grid. They are just living in the woods because they have burned every bridge and owe money out the wazoo. No one would rent to them and they can’t get utilities because of a past monies owed. And since their story went viral, (be careful what you ask for, you might just get it!) any prospective landlord would shut the door in their faces as soon as they Googled them. jmo

  73. Nora says:
    June 27, 2016 at 1:34 pm
    I just went to personal page & posted re: her vile post on your son. I requested her to return my money I have last year (she had offered to a while back). She is comes across a vile on FB. I don’t support vile people. Not ever.

    I am sure my comment will be deleted & I will be blocked.

    Nora,
    I love how she says she just spent $250.00 on a tiller and you can come pick it up! What a witch.
    Nope. You want the donation back in the form of how you donated. Not a garden tiller.

  74. I saw the post where she said I can come pick up the tiller. Since I’m so far away I wonder if I can get Al to pick it up for me.

  75. Nora, take the money!!!!!! Chances are high the tiller is already trashed. Nicole said she would give refunds so don’t let her weasel out of doing that. The Nauglers have gotten away with weaseling out of most obligations for years. Tell her no you want the cash, you will buy your own tiller.

  76. Totally agree with Joe Bloom!

    Nora, did you screen-shot where she said she would refund you when you should proof? If not, do so.

  77. Notice how Nicole kind of disarms Nora, for wanting a refund of her donation. Yeah, she’ll give you a refund, in the form of the garden tiller she just acquired for her son’s gardening efforts. Don’t you feel bad now, in front of all the supporters, kind of like taking candy from a baby?

    Nicole did say that she would gladly refund anyone’s donation, at anytime with no restrictions attached. Just proof of the donation. That doesn’t mean she will not hold a nasty grudge.

    If it were me, I would tell her to refund my donation in the same form as it was received. Cash. No bitcoin, grooming gift certificates, garden tiller, or IOU.

  78. If you give someone a gift, you don’t ask for it back a year later (or ever). Not from the Salvation Army, not from your uncle, not from the Nauglers. It is just not a thing.

    Nicole doesn’t have to “disarm” Nora. Nora did that all by herself.

  79. I will say the same thing that I said to the many people who wrote my page feeling stupid, angry and regretful for having donated to the Nauglers.

    There is nothing wrong with you for having donated. You did it because you are a caring person. You did it with the best intentions. What you did was a good thing.

    The problem lies with the person who defrauded you or tricked you. What they did was a bad thing.

    Don’t let it change your kind heart, but don’t be manipulated again either. People will play on your emotions. That is fine, love with your heart, but think with your brain at the same time. Sit back and examine the situation. Give it a few days for more information to come out before you send your money. Research it. The truth has a way of coming out fairly quickly.

    Don’t let one bad incident sour you. You can still trust, just trust a little more carefully. You can still give, just pick who you give to a little more carefully. You don’t have to send that money right this second, if someone says you do, be suspicious.

    To Nora,
    Don’t bother, I highly doubt you’ll see a refund. She was up half the night looking for an out, IMO. She was posting to you after midnight, for crying out loud. “How dare you not answer or be sleeping or something.” Take it as a life lesson and move on. Don’t let it change your kind heart. It’s not you, it’s her.

  80. Well you know what Bea, I can agree with you. Cash donations are gifts, given freely and not to expect to take it back.

    I highly doubt Nora really expects that Nicole will honor her word and return the money.

    If it were me, I would be somewhat compensated in getting my voice out, in disapproval of Nicole. At least it is symbolic that Nora does think what Nicole said was vicious and vile. And maybe she also feels misguided now, in looking back to when she donated her good money that she worked hard for. I think it also supports other people that donated and now feel annoyed in doing so, they see that there are others out here having the same feeling about it.

    Well spoken, Lisa. I do know that I am more careful in vetting GFM campaigns and other cash donation campaigns, since the Naugler viral story and GFM. In fact I just donated to two GFMs this past week. One, I have been following this child’s story for over a year. The other, I actually know the admin of the GFM. I trust both of these, but again I’ve grown more careful to background investigate, unless I know by association someone affiliated with the giving campaign.

  81. She offered the refund a month ago when I told her I felt bad that I thought the purpose of the GFM was helping them to get back on their feet. I questioned why Joe didn’t have a job & was quickly shouted down by her that he does as he is a dad to 11 kids, schools them & is building a homestead & working nights would only make him about 200 a week & cause him to be tired. I was then taken aback that she felt it was ok for others to work & be tired & still donate to her GFM account & I told her so. That’s when she offered to refund me. At the time I thought ok. The next day she posted something vile that someone did to her kids on her personal page (something about the kids wish lists). I felt bad for the kids & decided not to do anything about the money. So I dropped it. When I saw the post she wrote about Sally I couldn’t believe that she would put another mom down like she did I said I would take her up on it on the refund. My thought process was that Nicole feels entitled to free money & things. She doesn’t feel blessed or grateful, but entitled. Like, look at me, I have 11 children, there is no way anyone can take care of 11 children monetary wise, and the government is evil, so you must give me money. Up until her vile post my beef has been with Joe / sock puppet guy. I’m always up for helping another mom out & think moms should stick together, so the anger took over. I won’t pursue the money, a lesson learned for me. Actually, this blog has been a eye opening adventure on research for me. Meaning look into those doing GFM instead of having your heartstrings pulled.

    Imagine how different Nicole’s life & her children’s as well, would be if Joe only had a job. Is Joe a pot head?? To me that would explain a lot of the paranoia. Some heavy pot smokers get that way. They can also get disorganized as well. By the look of the BLH I would gather that something is amiss.

  82. Nora, I fully understand why you would be upset and want your money back. I would feel the same way. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to sound like I was insulting you. I was trying to say that because the money was a gift, nobody would expect Nicole to have to give it back and she might just use it as an example of how she is mistreated. She has a way of twisting things so that her people only see one side of the situation.
    I don’t think she has any real examples to use to show how she is being mistreated. She says that her family is being harassed. But even if “trolls” made millions of calls to child welfare, the police, and the health department, it wouldn’t ever matter unless those agencies found a problem.
    She says there are people standing on the property line taking pictures of her children? Where are these pictures? Why doesn’t she have pictures of it happening?

  83. Actually, this blog has been a eye opening adventure on research for me. Meaning look into those doing GFM instead of having your heartstrings pulled.

    This is exactly why this blog (and the other one) exists. I am infuriated when I see hard-working, decent, well-meaning people being scammed. Not only is it a form of theft, it also robs the truly deserving needy folks who actually could benefit from a little boost.

  84. She says there are people standing on the property line taking pictures of her children? Where are these pictures? Why doesn’t she have pictures of it happening?

    Because the photos don’t show what she says they show. The people standing on the property line taking photos were the Nauglers. The photo-taking from the other side came either from the road, while in motion, or from the neighbor’s house. Nobody put a single foot anywhere close to the property line.

  85. Like many followers of the train wreck known as Ma and Pa Naugler, I. Just. Cannot. Believe the extent to which they will lie to get what they want. Need a little sympathy? Why, whip the followers into a frenzy because your children are being stalked. Need a virtual hug and pat on the back? Post an entirely too late thank you for donations, and ask for prayers of protection. Need to make sure the gravy train of donations keeps running? Pimp your children out and post photos of them catching fireflies and playing at the blessed little dump. They aren’t homesteaders, un-schoolers, or people out to challenge and change the system. They are grifters, pure and simple.

    As for the CPS case, my money says that CPS returned physical custody of the children, but retained legal custody. Ma and Pa are coming up on the one year mark, which means there is likely an upcoming hearing to see if they are in compliance. Although Ma’s manufactured drama is entertaining, my heart goes out to the children who have to live with her as she escalates. And continue to escalate, she will, or I’m not a family law attorney with GAL experience.

  86. They will be coming at me again in the morning.
    Good Luck with that Joe & Nicole…I hate you too !!!
    🙂

  87. They will be coming at me again in the morning.
    Good Luck with that Joe & Nicole…I hate you too !!!

    I just want to make it clear that this blog has nothing whatever to do with Melissa’s “group.” I don’t know who it is or where it is or anything about it. I think that you go over the top quite a bit, Melissa, and I want to make sure everyone understands that.

  88. I appreciate the clarification, BLB.

    I was a little lost in Melissa’s comment, not knowing what it is regarding. Perhaps I may have missed a previous comment, if there was one.

  89. Melissa,

    For your own good I am deleting a number of your comments from my page. Nothing personal, I like you, but it is over the top hon.

  90. I enjoy this blog because it is well written and informative. While it’s obvious the writer doesn’t like the Nauglers, the posts have a point to them instead of just being insulting, mean and childish. Nicole and Joe work very hard to portray an online image. I think the anti-Naugler facebook pages that spew hate and nit-pic everything she posts just make Nicole look more credible.
    Thanks Sally!

  91. It looks like Nicole’s page is gone, perhaps court required she stay off Facebook? I hope they move to the cabin they showed awhile back? It looked like a way better situation for the kids. Does the cabin really exist?

  92. There is a structure on the property, Rachel. It’s a garden shed with a little loft. One door. Less than 500 square feet for a family of 13 plus at least one large dog. I doubt that the loft’s square footage is included, so I’m willing to add 80 square feet. Still not much.

  93. Aha. So the “cabin” in the video was simply the structure we’ve already heard about. It seems as if the primary reason that they are allowed to continue to keep their children in filth and ignorance is that the state of Kentucky has no money or infrastructure to care for the kids. Are there relatives? Where are the grandparents?

  94. Grandparents alienated. With an occasion exception of the maternal “alcoholic as she calls him” father dropping a comment or two on Facebook. The maternal grandmother I see has just recently been unblocked and allowed to post on one of her public pages. Un acknowledged posting, but not completely banned as before, until next time.

    As to other family, there is Joe’s sister who posts on occasion, as well as Nicole’s sister. Maybe another poster or two from a rather large extended family.

  95. Have the grandparents been available for temporary custody? Is this the family pattern?

  96. I have followed the Naugs for years now , long before any of the cps drama . They ( the parents ) are a train wreck , you just cant help but watch . I have never commented here , nor on her BLH page . I would love to reach threw the screen and smack them into reality , but more so her blind to reality ” Followers”. They claim she is giving her children ” The greatest gift” , “The dream childhood” and they feel for the poor children who can’t experience for one day what the Naug kiddos experience everyday and only dream oif raising their own the same. I have to ask ? WHAT exactly do them kids “experience” that every kid , everywhere can’t experience ?
    Let’s break it down . The only good I see them children gaining from their parents choice of life style is they do have lots of room to run and play on the property. That’s great , kids need that whenever possible . But that can be done in a back yard , at a local playground or field . why on earth do you need to be living like 3rd world refugees to give them that opportunity ? Why can’t they live in actual house on a big piece of property ?A real house, where them kid’s could come inside and bathe off the filth of the day ? Another praise point NN gets is her familys ever infamous “schooling” choice .I am not against homeschooling, or even unschooling . TBH, with the size of their family and the dire poverty they face the kids would be outcasted and targeted without a doubt. Add in their parents brainwashing and parnoia and they don’t stand a chance. That being said, for the Naug kids not being in pubic school is probaby to their advantage ( notice I didn’t say being homeschooled). Homeschooling vs public is really a matter of opinion ,and benifital depending on every child/ families different situation and needs . Although the Naug children are being saved from the bullying and tourment they would probaby face they are being denied any form of actual education . Homeschooling if done properly is a great choice , and personal one. Education is required , homeschooling is not. You also don’t need to store your children in a garden shed to homeschool .
    Basically , the cons far out weigh the pros in the life style the kid’s parents have chosen for them . They are forced to live piled into a garden shed , with less square footage than most people have in their kitcvhen . In all honestly its no wonder they spend every waking moment outdoors , because being inside is really not an option . They have no access to running , hot water to shower in after working and playing outdoors all day. They have no real bathroom, and are forced to use a bucket that Nicole has glorified as a “composting” toilet . One of the kids then on a daily basis has to haul buckets of their own , and of 10 other people’s ( babies in diapers ) shit and dump it into a pile on their property . There is no way they are hauling in enough water for 13 people to drink and bathe with . look up how many gallons per person per day is required .
    The kids do a majority of the homestead work …”by choice” of course as Nicole always points out. Everything they do is chalked up as an “unschool” lesson. I’m sure their work.. Cooking , gardening, animal care, child care, dog grooming, house work .. Far outweighs their play . You know, the cutsy videos Nicole posts of them frollicking threw the “wildernesses” . The videos that gives Nicole’s followers jealousy pangs. Of course I’m not against kids doing choruses within reason. But mom can’t even get her lazy ass in gear to wash the laundry for her family of 13 more than once a week . Once a week for 13 people can you imagine ??!
    Nicole’s answer to why they live in such deplorable conditions is because its their choice . They choose to give their children the same level of care you would give a pet. Food, shelter, somewhere to sleep ( bed not required) and a monthly bath ( a dog grooming shop none the less ).
    Her kids have the bare bone necessitys, if that . But they are so deprived . Anything beyond their daily lump of oat meal and discounted fruit is an unnecessary luxery according to Nicole . Toys ? She hates them. And the children can make them if they want them.Or save up for 3 years to buy one . On the rare occasion one of the littest do get a Dollar tree trinket they guard it like its the last breath they have. They claim to be minimalist, back to basics family . Except for having internet, and smart phones and a lap top of course .
    So why , would anyone choose to live like this? To make their children live like this ? Because Nicolle can’t , and won’t admit its not a fucking choice !! Her mental illness makes her rigid in her anti government mind set. So she refuses government assistance but cannot take care of her 11 kids on her solo grooming business income.
    Nobody chooses to live off grid, unless they knows how and have the money behind them to start. They live in a home with solar power ( not just enough tho turn on the white Christmas lights after dark ) . They garden . They compost . They raise live stock . The Nauglers don’t know how to do any if this. They wing it because their house was taken by the bank and they had a choice between total homelessness or wing it a garden shed. The only choice she is making is to neglect her children by refusing government help that would at least to give them a real place to live and food to eat beyond oat meal and goat meat. Maybe they could also have insurance to have access to medical care, beyond when and if they are dying and Nicole has no choice but to pay a medical bill ( I truly believe this is why Nicole homebirths also but that neither here nor there) .
    Let’s just hope that those kids, when they come of age strive to give themselves and their own children a better life than their parents gave them .
    Oh , and one last thing I don’t care how happy the kids appear . Even if they are they are kids and don’t know any different. Children also believe that their parents know what’s best for them. They are brain washed . And Nicole , if your reading the state of KY did not give you your kids back because they are well cared for or because you are “right” . They gave them back to you because other than the 2 babies, your children are undoptable . It would be like taking a raccoon from the woods and trying to make a house pet. They figured living in a shed with you and your useless husband would be better than them being permently displaced in the foster system . This was not a win for you , and certainly not for them kids. Sad , sick situion no matter how you twist it .

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