Reading

mommybooks

The child who bought these books is almost ten years old. In the real world, she’d be in the 3rd grade.

These books are suitable for pre-schoolers. They aren’t “books” in the sense that the child is expected to read them. They are “picture books.” They are intended for non-readers, for parents to read to their kids before bedtime.

When I first saw this, I wanted to give Nicole the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the kid bought the books for her younger siblings.

But then, Nicole says, that we should notice the theme. In other words, the child bought the books because this is what interests her. Being a mommy interests her. We’re supposed to think that is adorable. It makes me want to cry.  But she’s telling me that the child bought the books, using her own money that she earns making bows and washing dogs for almost nothing, because that is what she can read.

I get the idea that often, for entertainment, children will read below their grade level. I raised a son. He did that sometimes. And sometimes he read books that were actually far above his grade level, especially if they contained information he wanted to know about.

But this is not even close to that.

Here’s a sample from the book on the bottom right, Little Mommy.

littlemommy

The whole book is like this. Two rhyming, very simple sentences maximum per page. Some pages only have one line.

It’s a picture book. You read it to your 3-year-old.

It’s also sort of interesting because the child in the book uses a washing machine and has a kitchen and lives in a real house, but that’s another story.

What does the average ten-year-old read?  Not an exceptional, greatly advanced ten-year-old, but just an average one.

minnacover
click image to link to source

Here’s a sample.  This comes from a reading list for third graders.

minnasample

It doesn’t take a genius to see the difference.

No pictures. Lots of words on the page.  Bigger words, like “telephone” and “forsythia.” Numerous metaphors. The number “fourteen.” Greatly descriptive, almost poetic sentences.

Nicole and Joe Naugler are not educating their children. I know it. They know it. The whole world knows it. CPS knows it.  They are simply not educating those kids.

In my view, this is the most egregious thing they have done. Isolating them is bad. Neglecting them is bad. Living in a damned garden shed is horrible. Blaming them for not being able to run a fucking “homestead” is terrible.

But not educating them should be a criminal offense. The fact that the state of Kentucky allows them to get away with this infuriates me.

UPDATE:

I have been corrected by several folks, some of whom also have the child’s date of birth, and it seems she would be in 4th grade.  (It’s been a long time since I dealt with school children.)

This, of course, only makes it worse.

Here’s a sample book from that grade level.

cricketcover
click image to link to source

cricketsample

 

113 thoughts on “Reading”

  1. When I was ten and in a bad situation, I was off in High Hallack with Kerovan and Joisan. I was stabbing the Witch-King with Merry and Eowyn. I was proving everybody wrong with Oliver and refusing to sink to the level of my tormentors with Sarah Crewe. I dreamed of doing great things and winning my freedom.

    This is so sad. Her dream is to be a little girl, clean, loved, and safe.

  2. I cannot agree with this statement enough “But not educating them should be a criminal offense. The fact that the state of Kentucky allows them to get away with this infuriates me.”. How did the state of Kentucky get to the place where not educating your kids is not a criminal offense? When did things go so terribly wrong?

  3. Nicole and Joe are the type that give homeschooling a bad rap. And a call for more scrutiny. I imagine why genuine homeschoolers and homeschooling organizations prefer Nicole and Joe weren’t an agent in representing homeschooling and homeschooled.

    Yeah, Nicole, don’t be a crusading activist for homeschooling. Epic fail.

    I agree, not educating should be a criminal offense, denying a child a basic right to an education.

  4. Age 10 is actually 4th or 5th grade – depending on when the birthday falls. I have an 8 year old and she is in 3rd grade. If this child wants to be a mommy, I wish she would read “The Baby-Sitters Club” it is about girls her age or a little older that babysit. The books come in chapter version and comic (Graphix) type version.

    I feel bad for all the kids. It is so difficult to catch up on lost education the older they get. Very sad.

  5. Age 10 is actually 4th or 5th grade

    I have the child’s birth date. I looked it up. Third grade. She’s not ten yet.

  6. The common theme is neglect and illiterate. Those books are nowhere near the level she should be able to read at. And the sad thing is that’s ok with them. The kids don’t know any better but the parents should, they just don’t care. I highly doubt these are books meant to be for fun since she spent her own money to buy them. But hey, keep them isolated and they will never know that their parents are retarding their abilities right?

  7. I immediately thought when I saw these books, that this 10year old child bought, were for reading to her younger siblings…
    But I couldn’t imagine the little ones being interested in the subject…
    Surely this child can read better than the vocabulary presented in theses books!
    I have a copy of a Golden book in my sock drawer called “The Color Kittens”.
    I was given a copy of this book when I was two years old.
    I adored this book out of all the books I had at that time.
    My younger sister remembers this book as well, but remembers it torn and tattered.
    I gave us both new copies several years back, and my sister was thrilled. Her book is kept in with her art books in her library. I also have an art library, but I keep my little book is where I used to keep my precious tattered copy.
    I’m hoping Nicole posted this just to create more drama and that her daughter actually reads at a higher level.
    Playing with dolls, and pretending to be a mommie is normal at this age, but I do recall this child also enjoyed climbing trees. Hopefully she has other interest.
    Nicole is bragging again, but her daughter’s apparent reading level is something Nicole needs to fix.
    Shame on Nicole.

  8. Attention, Nicole! YES! We can see the theme in these books! Here it is:

    >>Her dream is to be a little girl, clean, loved, and safe. This is the THEME as well.

    I’ve long thought this sweet little girl is the true “mother” of the family (not Nicole). Public childbirth, proud and naked boob breastfeeding selfies, and yammering about #unschooling do not make you a mother any more than animal and firewood pictures make you a #homesteader. IT’S NOT ABOUT THE PICTURES!

    I’ve also wondered if this same sweet little girl has not longed to be a boy. It must be a heavy load to bear…mothering that many children at such a young age. I bring it up only because I had similar feelings during my childhood. I am not talking in a “transgender” sense. Life just looked a whole lot easier for the boys in my life; and, as a young girl, I had to work, work, work (and I won’t go into the darker stuff). I sure hope this isn’t her reality. I hope I’m projecting and speculating my own (past) issues instead. I WILL say it is damn hard to break out of well-ingrained “molds” forced upon you at a young age and harder still to change deeply entrenched thought processes due to circumstances over which we have no control.

    Developmentally (and emotionally) she could very well be much younger than a typical 10-year-old. Trauma and extreme family dysfunction has a way of doing that to you.

  9. I have a 9 year old who is a reluctant reader. He will read graphic novels like Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Jedi Academy, and will begrudgingly read “big books without pictures” on subjects he likes: Greek Mythology, reptiles and dinosaurs, and the sinking of the Titanic.

    The books listed above are the kind of thing he will read to his toddler sister if I force him to. So it’s possible she got them to read to the littles and teach them to read? I mean, that’s the best case scenario and it’s still sad as hell. That poor girl.

  10. I have a just turned 9 year old third grader. We homeschool. This morning he read me a few chapters “Squanto Friend of the Pilgrim”. He reads Magic Tree House, and other lower level chapter books for fun. It’s tragic that these children are not getting a proper education, not to mention giving good homeschoolers a bad name. I spend several hours every Sunday afternoon, planning our school week. I understand having kids who aren’t reading on grade level, I had two kids who struggled with reading. Instead of continuing to throw lower level books at them, we paid to have them evaluated and figured out why they were struggling with reading. Then we sucked it up and spent big bucks on vision therapy and amazingly they both are on target and reading at or above grade level now. Homeschooling is no joke. It’s not for the faint hearted, it’s not for the cheap. Homeschooling is expensive and time-consuming. If you’re not willing or able to do the work send them to school, please!

    Oh and I’m sure in the next few hours or days we will see a post on FB with all these huge books above grade level that this kid is reading.

  11. I believe you have looked up the DOB, you do your research.

    My comment is based on my current knowledge of when kids start school (3 in the system). In my state (which is not KY but I just checked KY and the rules are the same as my state) kids start school (kindergarten) at age 5. Sounds like this child has a fall or winter birthday, she should have started kindergarten at age 5 1/2. My child started at roughly 5 1/2 because of a winter birthday. Mid-year my child turns 9 and will be 9 when starting 4th grade next (2017) fall.

    Either way, the books are for a preschooler and your example or a series like “The Baby-Sitters Club” would be more age appropriate.

  12. These books are not something a child should have to pay for out of their allowance or, worse yet, their earnings. These are the kinds of books that a parent buys for a child. Yes, out of the parents own pocket, out of the parents personal food budget if need be.

    I have spent my personal lunch money and not eaten for a week to purchase books for my child because THAT IS WHAT PARENTS DO. Parents pay for the necessities: clothing, food, bedding, books, educational supplies and art supplies. Children should not have to use their slave wages to teach themselves to read.

  13. I am glad you brought up this topic. When I saw that her daughter had bought those books i sadly assumed that they were in fact for her own reading pleasure…I read similar books like those to my kids when they were about 2-3..I still have them in my book shelf because I thought it would be fun to save them and read them to my own
    Grandchildren when the time comes…When I was 9-10 I used to ride my bike in the summer to the local library and sit there all day and read things like Little House on the Prairie, The Lion the Witch and The Wardrobe or The Wizard of Oz series…I have a feeling this sweet little girl will in fact read these to her younger siblings..maybe she will help them to learn how to read..it may be the only way they learn…

  14. Oh Sally, I am glad to see you were equally as mortified by that post. It broke my heart. Those indeed ARE toddler books. When my daughter was 3 years old, she too wanted to grow up and be a mommy. By the time she was 10, she had her sites set on much higher things. But then, my daughter actually received an education. And if that poor child bought those books to read to her younger siblings, I am saddened she had to use her own money to do so. You’d think her mother would have skipped a Hardee’s meal and fronted her the money. And would all those boys be interested in hearing stories about “Little Mommies?” The whole post just made me so very sad for [child].

  15. Not only are the picture books sad to see for a child her age, but so is the fact that they’re purchased from Amazon.

    Go to a yard sale, or a Friends of the Library sale and you can get these same books. Probably for less, or at least without shipping and handling. Plus the opportunity to have discussions with people while browsing the books. Imagine if she had gone to a yard sale and made a friend while shopping for books. I really hope those books are intended to be read to the younger children. However, if that is the case, that is still sad. Why the hell aren’t Joe and Nicole purchasing and reading books like these to THEIR small children? Why is this a child’s responsibility?

    For shame, Joe and Nicole. No wonder “lax homeschooling regulations” was on your “must have” list when getting ready to flee Maine.

  16. My math agrees with MP’s: if Nicole’s daughter was age 9 at the start of this school year she would currently be in 4th grade. I hasten to point out math is not my best subject…..

    But to me Nicole is not concerned about the reading level of the books because her only interest in sharing the photo was to brag about her daughter wanting to be just like Mommy.

    Right off the bat, I’m having some trouble imagining the whole Amazon online shopping scenario as an independently-made selection, since browsing and purchasing would require assistance from someone older who has more reading skills.

  17. This is by far the most damning Naugler practice and the first thing that I looked up regarding the laws in my state when I began this journey. I agree Sally, I am sickened and infuriated too. States that allow this will draw more naugler-types promoting ignorance and neglect, if not worse, unless changes are made. Groups like Homeschoolers Anonymous are working for changes and this is a great place begin looking for information on changing these laws for those interested. There is very strong opposition to change today from powerful homeschool groups, but this is of course not what the Naugler’s are doing, but rather hiding behind. This is where states enforcing minimal standards and outside testing are helping prevent some of this blatant educational abuse to occur, besides providing other safeguards for children, such as mandatory reporting.

    Whenever this sordid tale comes up in conversation, immediately folks are universally appalled that this is legal. The second question they ask is, “so where is this actually happening?” Sadly when I say Kentucky, it all seems to make sense to them. But Ky isn’t the only state that is this lax, and the Naugler’s know where to flee next opportunity.

    This is the cycle of poverty of mind that Nicole is attempting to glamorize and rationalize to the extreme detriment of her very own children. I can only believe she is actively hobbling them to her for a lifetime for her own happiness and labor. It is cult brainwashing, and she is the sick minister of propaganda. It is the worst thing a person can do, enslaving a child in this manner. She is a monster.
    This is an American tragedy for those born into this or lured by marriage.

  18. Let’s for a moment assume the child did actually buy these books for her younger siblings, either as Christmas gifts (do they celebrate Christmas?) or to read the books to them.

    I’d say that may even be sadder.

    And you know why?
    Look at the topic of these books, look at the life they show.
    Why would she feel the need to tell her younger siblings that such a life exists?
    Because she lived it for a short time in foster care? Because especially the younger ones are spending most of their time on the homestead with their (at least) mentally absent dad and this is the only way she knows how to convey them something of that traditional household life? And she wants them to know about it. She thinks that’s valuable knowledge. Valuable enough that she spends her own hard-earned money on it. On this topic.

    🙁

  19. If I am wrong on the appropriate grade, then the whole thing is even worse. I was trying to err on the side of caution.

  20. When I saw the post I thought it was Nicole’s bizarre sense of humor and baiting rolled into one. With the rough and tumble boys in that family being read those books isn’t going to be that interesting. They will probably sit through a reading a few times, because they are desperate for someone, anyone, to read to them, but it won’t last long. If they are for that young lady I am glad she is reading, but shame on her parents for being so damned neglectful and denying her the joy of reading for so long.

  21. The choice of books may indicate a low reading level. But it could also be that the books just appealed to her emotions. They are sweet and comforting books.

    I think this is the same little girl who used to spend everyday for the past year at work with Mommy at the shop. Now this little girl stays home with Joe because mommy doesn’t need her at work anymore.

    Nicole, according to her own posts, is gone 12 hours a day. Part of that time is a long commute where she can visit with the kids in the car. I think most kids would be seriously hurt that their Mom didn’t want/need them with her anymore because she wanted them to stay home and babysit.
    It would be normal to have some BIG emotional needs after losing all that mommy attention, and now she is stuck at home babysitting with Joe all day.

    The little girl may want to read the books to her baby brother because he doesn’t get to see mommy anymore either. Nicole said the other day she hadn’t had a day off in 9 days. She makes it sound like the little kids are asleep when she leaves in the morning and asleep when she gets home at night.

    It might also be strange because there is a “new” mommy on the homestead.

  22. I was thinking that maybe she isn’t ready to really read yet and that is why she isn’t reading at grade level. I am saying this because not every child learns to read young. I couldn’t get my daughter to read no matter what I did. They around age 12 it suddenly clicked with her and she hasn’t stopped since. She will read several novels a week if it’s up to her. She is taking honor classes and get good grades. She still can’t spell worth a crap but is a great at math. They all learn different ages Maybe this little girl just isn’t ready yet. At least I am hoping that is the case.

  23. I loved reading the babysitter club books. I also remember reading sweet valley high.

  24. It pisses me off that she had the child order from amazon. Why not take her to the bookstore in Etown. Why not see if Walmart has them, my gosh when I worked there, it seems like she was there every single day.

  25. They all learn different ages

    If a child who is being educated hasn’t learned to read by age ten, she needs professional intervention.

    These children aren’t being educated. Nobody is even attempting to teach them anything.

    People do not learn to read by magic, like Nicole asserts. If that were true, the whole world would be literate, and that is quite clearly not the case. From Wikipedia, “The global literacy rate for all males is 90.0% and the rate for all females is 82.7%.”

    Do we have a situation where those 10-15% of human beings are just stupid and didn’t teach themselves for some reason?

    While you can find lots of anecdotes about people learning to read on their own, what you generally find in situations like that is an environment where learning is valued, where the child is surrounded by literate people who read a lot, and who model literacy as a desirable skill. There is some evidence that suggests that literacy has gotten a boost from the ubiquitous nature of technology. It’s sort of like the fact that nobody takes formal typing lessons anymore. Kids seem to be born knowing how to use a keyboard.

    But these children are not in such an environment. They have one freaking Kindle shared among 11 children. They have about two small shelves of old crappy books. They spend most of their time outdoors because they live in a garden shed with no space. They have to buy their own fucking books, and they have to earn the money to do that by making stupid bows and washing dogs. Their parents’ obsessions consist of bitching about the neighbors and staring at a phone screen. Everything these kids attempt to do is a failure. They have no help with anything. They aren’t given appropriate materials to work with. They have no mentors of any sort.

    Sorry to rant, but I just get so angry about this.

  26. It is an indictment on our society that so little money is allotted for the welfare and benefit of our children. The Kentucky CPS is grossly under-funded and the staff is probably horribly over-worked and only the worst cases (where children are in imminent danger of their lives) are children actually removed from the home and placed in foster care. The Naugler kids are neglected, don’t have access to clean running water or real bathroom facilities, but since they aren’t in imminent danger of death, they got returned to their parents. I agree that the educational neglect is just as bad as all the other neglect and if nothing else, CPS should have required that the children be enrolled in the local public school system. It seems to me that if the children all tested below their school average (I’m guessing they did. Maybe I’m wrong.), that CPS should tell their parents: “You have x months to get your children up to their grade level, or we will require you to enroll them in the public school system.” I could not believe Nicole was showing off those books. I think she does it hoping to provoke negative attention, so she can once again cry “poor picked on me!”

  27. HMM said “I have spent my personal lunch money and not eaten for a week to purchase books for my child because THAT IS WHAT PARENTS DO. Parents pay for the necessities: clothing, food, bedding, books, educational supplies and art supplies. Children should not have to use their slave wages to teach themselves to read.”
    I hadn’t even thought of that viewpoint, but I agree. When my son was younger, we didn’t have much money, but whenever the Scholastic book orders came around, I made certain my son could buy several books. I paid for those books; my ten-year old did not. Nicole, you should have limited yourself to the children you could afford instead of willy-nilly popping kids out and then making them pay their own way because you and your husband are completely irresponsible.

  28. That poor girl. She obviously wants to read books, but if those are the only ones she can read, she needs help. The longer she goes without assistance on this, the more pronounced the problem will become. So sad. :'(

  29. Bea, I like your post, makes a lot of sense on many levels.
    Lisa, yes. Never discount the baiting. Like the infant pulling up on the bookcase, can she be any more obvious. I’m seriously waiting for the pic of the baby propped up with a duck taped weapon. (Grabbing my pearls in angst. )

    Just a FYI: my 10 y/o nephew is hooked on the, _I survived…_
    series. Really cool historical fiction series for that age group. They devour them.

  30. Sigh. I think this was a post that was not needed. I know this was meant to be critical of Nikki and Joe’s choices, but it feels like throwing the child under the bus.

    I know why it is here, but at the same time I know the child might have learning issues and without knowing for sure what her reading abilities are and why it’s not fair to the child.

    Thankfully, I’m not under the same microscope as Nikki and Joe. I just know my own child at that age would be considered illiterate.

    Not because of my lack of working with her. I worked with her daily. It was just that hard for her to grasp it. Once it clicked nothing stopped her. She is not exactly where I would want her, but at least she’s no longer illiterate.

    Anyway, perhaps it’s because my own child has struggled in this area this post rubbed me the wrong way.

  31. When Nicole posted a partial educational testing report about one of the children (who in age is equivalent to a 12th grader) she stated that the child tested in the 12th grade percentile in reading. That score was for a 7-8 minute reading test component. There were more components to that test. What she neglected to realize is that the report she showed also showed that the overall scores of that child in language arts ranged between a 4th grade level and the 12th grade level. Yes, a senior aged child testing at a 4th grade level in some of the language arts component tests. This is a child who had previously been homeschooled in a more traditional manner before Nicole and Joe gave up and went unschool. That is on the parents not on the child. There is only so much a child can do without the proper access and tools to unschool themselves. Obviously the child has been working at it and I give him credit for doing the best he can in the circumstances.

  32. She could not have logged onto Amazon and located these books by herself. So is she being steered along the (uneducated) mommy track? At nine years old? I could vomit.

  33. Not because of my lack of working with her. I worked with her daily.

    And there is the difference. Completely different.

    Thankfully, I’m not under the same microscope as Nikki and Joe.

    Not “thankfully.” You haven’t chosen to crawl up on the slide and lie down. Nicole has.

  34. Sleepless,
    my youngest son is hearing impaired and was diagnosed with a processing problem. This made reading, and writing very difficult for him.
    We started working with him at three years old to help him.
    If he had been a member of the Naugler family he would have been a sad failure unable to hold down the well paying job he has now. He’s married to a doctor and has a beautiful child that they read to every night.
    Pointing out deficits in the Nauglers care for their children is absolutely not a criticism of this child.
    I listened to neighbors, doctors, teachers and, at times, total strangers opinions on how to help make my son a success in life.
    I think Nicole is too stupid to recognize all the nuances of her latest post, or any of the others she has posted.
    If she does recognize and fully understand how her post will affect the readers in the real world, then she is truly an evil person who enjoys making fun of her own children for the fun of horrifying the public.

  35. I usually approve things my kids buy with their money , just to guide them in smart choices.

    I hope cps keeping this case open, reevaluated the lack of education here. Reading and writing are essential in life. Being below grade level is Nicole’s fault not the kid. Again, that many kids leaves very little time to read to reach kid each day.

    Maybe she is being trained to watch her new nephew/niece without pay.

  36. I am continuing to post what I hope will become a complete series about homeschooling with limited money, bandwidth, and space over at my LJ, jenny-islander@livejournal.com. I will turn the comments on when (if) I post the last segment. (I’m doing this in my spare time, so.) Hopefully this will be of use to someone who reads here.

  37. I hope cps keeping this case open, reevaluated the lack of education here.

    The issue is not that CPS does not know. They do know. The issue is that in Kentucky there are no requirements for “homeschoolers.” They don’t have to do anything at all. Nothing.

    Freedom, don’tcha know.

  38. “School Choice” is a euphemism for this kind of ‘educational’ approach. Makes me sick.

    I also notice a theme with these books:
    Mothers.
    A new mother moving into another shack on the property, the child being left at home to mother her younger siblings, and a ‘mother’ who is away 12 hours/day and the rest of the time staring at her phone.

  39. I had many of the same thoughts when I saw this on her page.

    I’ll admit it’s been a long time since Golden Books were in my home. So I wasn’t sure on the age appropriateness of the books but I knew they wouldn’t be for a child over the age of 5.

    My children have used money to buy books before so I won’t fault Nicole on that. The books they buy with their own money tend to be more expensive and limited edition graphic novels and whatnot. Books are rarely something they have to pay for out of their own earnings. Books are educational and as a parent my job is to pay for their educational expenses. We own a lot of books. I am a bit of a book hoarder. But like I said, sometimes they choose to buy expensive, fun books and that’s totally okay.

    I’m saddened by how limited the children are. This isn’t a homeschooling or unschooling issue. It’s a neglect issue. Those children are beyond sheltered, they have no free exposure to the outside world. Children should be free to go out into the world, unaccompanied by parents, they need to see the world without their parents ever present influence. It’s not healthy for anyone to have such a limited worldview.

    To the poster who commented on their child having an issue with literacy. Nicole is not under the microscope because her child might have a literacy issue. She is under the microscope because she put herself their. I have a child that struggled to read, none of my other children struggled. This child just couldn’t get it. So they were tutored, got extra attention and we varied the techniques for teaching reading. It was a group goal to get them reading at an appropriate level. It was also caught early. They were in first grade and reading at a preschool level. So we got intervention, lots of it. Within a year they were reading at a third grade level. I am sure some of that was it was just clicking but I truly believe without intervention it wouldn’t have clicked. Nicole isn’t a fan of outside help. I truly doubt she would be okay with a tutor or a teacher helping any of her children that might be struggling. And that’s a shame.

  40. I think this post is needed. Yes, sometimes children read later for whatever reasons. Often it is due to undiagnosed learning disabilities which with proper education and skill sets can be overcome, either partially or entirely. Some children can self learn, some cannot. Some children learn easily with instruction, some need extra help. Each child is different. One size does not fit all. A good parent will recognize this and act according to what their child needs not what the parent wants, needs or believes in. That is my job as a parent.

    I am the mother of a learning disabled child. He is on the autism spectrum specifically he is neurologically different as regards auditory processing disorder, aphasia, dyslexia, dysgraphia and he has had other sensory issues. I didn’t leave him like that to work it out on his own. I worked with him, a series of specialists worked with him, I sent him to a school specifically designed to teach him how to live and learn with these differences. I let him mainstream when he felt he was ready. He is now in advanced placement in a magnet public school and is an honors student. I did not insist that he push himself this hard. To be honest I never imagined that this would be the outcome. He made that decision, he wanted this for himself. This is what makes him happy. I just provided the tools for him. This is what parents do. They help their child reach their full potential. I couldn’t be more proud of him.

  41. *Squeaks delightedly*

    I LOVED “The Cricket in Times Square” when I was growing up. How lovely to see it here!

  42. How horrid. There’s no reason to think that those kids have special needs, making this a huge problem. She’s crippling those children’s chance at independent adult lives. I’m horrified that any states can allow this.

    Usually I’d say at least a kid is reading, but when a kid can’t, probably because she isn’t very interested or because she doesn’t have anyone teaching her how, then I can’t say that. It’s tragic at that point. Nicole should be hanging her head in shame. Those kids all deserve better.

  43. Just when I think N has reached her lowest point, she posts this crap, thinking it will legitimize her as an excellent parent and a qualified home school administrator but all it does is show her gross incompetence. Her idea of boasting about her child buying books with the money she earned is pathetic. Books are items bought by parents and grandparents, not by the child.

    I suspect what she is attempting to do here is to show how responsible her children are because they work and earn money and then use that money to buy their needs and wants. This is another ploy to make her look so much better than her lowly readers who seem to think she is the one to follow—the mentor. Dumbass N doesn’t even comprehend that books are necessities much like indoor plumbing and immunization. I wonder how much money each child contributes to the portable shit house?

    But then she has the stupidity to show the books her daughter chose to buy as if she is saying, look, my daughter wants to be a caregiver and she loves reading about being a nurse or a mommy and just look at her buying not one or two but three books. I wonder if N knows that those golden press books were written for preschool aged children? If, in fact, her daughter chose those books over a book rated at a level more appropriate to her age group, it reveals some really sad information about her children’s lack of literacy acquisition. And no, children do not just learn to read; there’s a process to children’s reading and writing. One of the ways in which we teach our children new words is through rhyming and those Golden Press books are full of rhymes. Even when parents don’t read to their children, many kids watch kids programs on TV where they pick up some word association etc.

    From K to 2 grades, they learn to write and learn to read, but by 3ird grade, they are writing and reading to learn. That means they are reading complicated books that not only increase their vocabularies but also teach them complicated sentence structure, variations in styles of writing, subtleties of language and how to process complicated information or plots and development of non-linear characters. I believe over the last few months we have seen that N’s ideas of unschooling is failing her children and taking away the rights that so many other children in the USA are able to claim.

    Many of those who posted on this thread have also commented on the subject matter (being a mommy or nurse) and I agree that the child could see these books as her fantasy. Instead of her being the caregiver, she may long for someone to care for her like in those books—the little girl with clean clothes and a pretty room and the safety that is projected in those pages. I feel so sorry for the children. Again, N has shown how grossly incompetent she is as both a mother and teacher. She needs to be arrested.

  44. Sleepless in the USA somewhere,
    You acknowledge that your child has struggles and are worked on them. You never gave up. I have friends that homeschool. One mom has some children with learning disabilities. She did tons of research on learning/teaching styles. Her kids are now adults, and doing amazing.
    Maybe this is the child’s reading level. My concern is if the child has education needs, are they being met/addressed!

  45. “The choice of books may indicate a low reading level. But it could also be that the books just appealed to her emotions. They are sweet and comforting books.”

    If true, this makes it worse. Comfort should come from being loved and cuddled when needed, not from buying books to aid in dreaming about warmth and plenty.

    @Sleepless, the post and the comments are extremely sympathetic to the kids, and focused on Nicole and Joe failing them. Their pretend-homeschool can not be critiqued without looking at whether or not it’s working. It’s not. Everyone here is clear that it’s not the kids’ fault. Nicole and Joe shouldn’t be immune from criticism on this topic just because it means discussing how a child is years behind reading level. Theres no way to talk about schooling methods without taking about the kids’ accomplishments regarding schooling.

    If you can think of another way to discuss how not-schooling is failing kids without mentioning the kids, whose lagging is evidence to back up the claim that not-schooling fails kids, then please tell us what that other way is.

  46. Do you remember several months ago when N posted a pile of books that young Miss N was reading? Those books including The Golden Compass if I remember clearly were certainly above the reading level that those books shown today are.
    I hope that whoever succeeds the asshat that is governor of KY now has some brains and sees the need for change in the educational system.
    My kids read everything and anything they could. My daughter loved romance novels, and her dad made friends with someone who was liquidating a used book store and brought home 2 bushels worth. She was in heaven. The son loved Tom Clancy and then got in to Manga and Star Wars. Their dad is a very slow reader while I whisk through books. But we discuss what we read. I can’t see J&N discussing what their kids are reading with them.

  47. when i was a girl i read anything about horses, the black stallion, misty of chincoteague, the red colt. i also read what the witch left and much of the oz series. as an 8-10 year old my dreams were about boots that took 500 mile steps, or riding away on horseback. but motherhood? NEVER

  48. Those books including The Golden Compass if I remember clearly were certainly above the reading level that those books shown today are.

    That was a different child.

  49. I agree with Bea’s post. There are a number of things that stand out to me.
    First this child had no parental input on her purchases.
    If this had been my child I would have pointed out these books were for the very young and guided my child to books they would truly enjoy. A good parent will be there to lead their child to age appropriate books.
    It is obvious that Nicole has no knowledge of these books or what they contain.
    If these were for reading to the younger children they can be found cheaply as second hand books.
    The second thing that makes my heart sink for these children is the focus of the books that were purchased.
    A child NEEDING a mother. That says it all right there.

  50. This seems like an attention seeking fiction to me. Sellers on Amazon charge $4 to ship a book. Why would anyone pay $4 for dated preschool books you can pick up at Goodwill five for a dollar?

    I have to admit, it ran though my mind that her new baby book post is a response to a post I made about her picture of the little boy and the moldy book shelf…and her claiming the older girl was reading adult books at age 11. VERY adult books.

    Here’s my post in question, in case ya missed it:

    ***

    So today we get a picture of the baby with a bunch of raggedy-ass water damaged books.

    Run away, sweet little tyke! Run away from that certain lung-full of black mold and stinky mildew!

    I’m guessing Nicole is feeling a little heat from some of her fans about that…ya know…reading thing.

    Of all the many hundreds of photos posted of the children, it really is curious that we haven’t seen books in their house, or their possession. And looking at that shelve, in a home full of 11 kids, where the hell are the kid’s books? And the idea that “they don’t know how their children learned to read”, and certainly no evidence the kids are read-to….makes even the most hard core Naug-fan wince and die a little inside.

    I remember Nicole saying that her 11 year old daughter had read the Clan of the Cave Bear series by Jeal Auel…every book, at least twice!

    While, I personally, enjoyed these books, I have to wonder if an 11 year old enjoyed the chapter long soft-porn descriptions of Jondalar and Ayla having multiple-orgasm sex with his thrusting manhood and tasting, probing….and well, you get the picture. The ritualized deflowering of virgins was interesting, and the graphic rape of Ayla in the first book by a man who hated her and punched her in the face whist “jabbing her with his thick organ”….was a bit much for this middle aged mom to take. And of course, Ayla also has graphic sexual encounters with a few other guys on the side of Jondalar. In total, there is a literal (literary?)metric feck-ton of over-the-top sex scenes in those books . Wonder how a young girl barely in puberty metabolized all of that? Not just the first time she read it, but BOTH times…cause you know, she read them all at least TWICE!

    I’m guessing this is what really happened: The kiddo read most of the first book, or saw the movie. The first book is a hell of an adventure story that a kid could enjoy following. (sans the rape) My kiddo loved the first book when she was that age. We talked about the rape, and I had some reservations, but it was a serious useful discussion and she was a mature kid. We were reading the book together and just acknowledged the rape happened, but skipped reading it in detail.

    But once you get to The Valley of the Horses in the second book? Holy one-eyed Mo-gur, Batman! Oh Doni! You might as well admit it’s prehistoric porn. Ayla and Jondalar go at it in a 20 page graphic sex scene that leaves nothing, and I mean nothing…to the imagination.

    And then, in the next book Ayla is torn between Jondalar and Ranec the sexy chocolate guy (think Paleolithic Obama)…and it gets to be one crazy roll in the furs after another!

    Hearing Nicole brag that her young daughter read these books kinda makes me want to knock my head into a wall. But that’s pretty standard with the Naugs, so i’m hardly surprised.

    Not to say I’m a prude. My seventeen year old and I read 50 shades together…just so we could do dramatic voices and fall on the livingroom floor laughing together as my hubby gave us strange looks over his laptop. So, it’s not like I’m horrified by sex. Even kinky weirdness…meh…doesn’t really offend. (though it does entertain the hell out of my perverse sense of humour)

    But gee whiz…the idea of an 11 year old reading 20 pages in a row of thrusting throbbing penetrations and swelling nipples….good gravy, Nicole! And that’s just the first 50 pages!

    Not once, but TWICE!

    LOL

    ***Could this have inspired her latest goofy post? Little O. seems like a firecracker. Hard for me to believe she’s reading at a preschool level with that older sister who loves books around.

    I think Nicole is playing us.

    If she’s not? Good grief.

    Get that poor child a library card, Nicole. Get her some Ramona and Fudge and Island of the Blue Dolphins and Junie B. Jones….get her Charlott’s Webb for fuck’s sake. If you’re too damned lazy to do it, have her develop a friendship with a children’s librarian who can help her find reading level appropriate books that interest her!

  51. @FiftyShadesOfNaug: My MIL loved to read historical novels and romances. She was pretty earthy, so you’d think she wouldn’t mind the sex in the Earth’s Children series, but she described The Plains of Passage as “—-in’ Their Way to France” and wondered dryly whether they could get rug burn off of the dry grass of the Plains as they inched their way along. She marked the pages where the actual plot picks up and leaves off again.

    That said, I knew plenty of teens and even tweens who read the things when they were new. We didn’t have fanfic, and a lot of the other books aimed at female readers were kind of rape-as-love-y or rape-and-revenge-y back then. Sex-ed books were awfully gynecological and Playgirl was a bit too full frontal, so where else were we going to learn?

    We also didn’t let our moms know what we were checking out, because we had privacy.

  52. I think Nicole burned the bridge to her local library.
    Something about the librarian calling the authorities when a dependent Naug was left for some time without supervision. Nicole didn’t like this one bit. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on this.

  53. First: FiftyShadesOfNaug…..thank you! When I saw the pic of the baby in front of those gross books, I could smell the mildew. Why does Nicole think this is normal or good? It baffles me. I love used book stores and there is one here in Fairbanks that is stellar. Their Alaskan section often has some real gems in it and while the books are used, they are not dirty and smelling of mildew. A few years ago, I frequented a charity book shop in Alaska’s capital on my days off and found a treasure trove of 30-year-old magazines. They were well read and used but they were clean.
    Second: I was curious about the discussion of what grade an almost 10-year-old would be in if she was in the public or private school system. I work in a school and on my lunch I looked up the 4th and 5th grade rosters. All of the 4th graders were at least 9-years-old. The 5th graders were mostly 10-year-olds, with about a third being 9-years-old. So this child should be reading at least at a 4th grade level. If she is not, due to a learning disability, and she was enrolled in a school, she would be entitled to receive special education services that would include as much reading support as she needed. Her apparent ridiculously low reading level is 110% on the shoulders of her disgustingly neglectful parents.
    Third: I agree with the others who have already posted on here about the dismal future of this child unless CPS steps in and places her, and her siblings, in a home where education is a priority. This poor little girl is now left at “home” all day with her sperm donor who has a record of verbally and physically abusing others. I fear for her. At 10-years-old, my responsibilities included keeping an eye on my younger sibling but we were both in the care of a loving neighbor babysitter who watched us after school; doing my homework; getting good grades to the best of my abilities; keeping my private room clean and tidy; doing the dishes after supper and spending time with my friends engaged in healthy activities. I was not raised in an even middle-class environment but my parents recognized what their responsibilities were and they took them seriously.
    Fourth: Absolutely none of this is a criticism of this lovely little girl. Given her shitty parents, all the siblings she “loves” to take care of (re: the BO and JoJo do jack shit) and her horribly unhealthy environment; this child is a warrior solely because of who she is and it has nothing to do with her sperm and egg donors.
    Fifth: It is so sad to see the photo of the clean and healthy pet grooming salon, knowing that the children are raised in chaos and filth. Here’s an original idea Nicole and Joe – get off your fucking lazy asses and put in the time and energy to provide a clean and healthy home for your children. Nicole, you posted a pic of a beautiful log cabin on your page. Guess what? Having this requires a lot of actual work. Tell your pathetic spouse to get to work. He might even lose some weight.

  54. So many people here have commented with thoughts I agree with.

    I want to chime in on reading delays. One of the previous posters said: “If a child who is being educated hasn’t learned to read by age ten, she needs professional intervention.”

    Yes, but I would say, why wait until 10? My daughter, similar to Lisa’s child, had/has some learning disabilities that we sussed out by the time she was 2. In addition to some fine motor skill issues, she had speech acquisition delays, and we immediately got her into early intervention with speech, occupational therapy and at school age, reading. When she was in 3rd grade, she we realized she just could not decode words, could not break down the sounds and string a multisyllabic word together. Rather than let this problem snowball, we got a private tutor who was paid for by the school district (these types of services are available from public schools if a child has an IEP and there is a demonstrable need). The tutor came to our home 2x weekly for 90 minutes per session, and read with her, teaching her one on one how to attack a new word, how to put the sounds together, how to help her comprehension.

    They read “The Doll People”. An excellent fantasy book and perfect for a girl of 8-9 years of age. By the end of his time tutoring my daughter, they had read the whole book and its sequel.

    Nicole’s daughter is older than mine was at this time. “The Doll People”, rated at grade level 3.8, is a type of book she should be reading at age 9, not a set of pre-school Golden Books. Whether this child is reading delayed due to disability or educational negligence, the result is the same. She is behind. A world of curiosity, fantasy, imagination and dreams await her if she could learn to read well. Nicole and Joe are denying her that.

    The child’s focus on “mommy hood” is also disturbing at this age. This is a pre-school/kindergarten fascination that a little girl has when home with “Mommy”. By 8 or 9 a girl’s reading interests veer away from being “maternal”, and healthily so! As girls socialize with other girls and boys in the outside world, their interests naturally expand to animals, adventure stories, Madeleine, Nancy Drew, Matilda, Disney heroines, the Ramona series, Nancy Drew, even Hardy Boys. The Naugler girl’s focus on themes of motherhood only underscores how isolated and limited her childhood is. It is not normal for a 9 year old to be interested in reading about being a mommy. (but this is all she is exposed to. Loads of siblings she must tend to, and a teen brother who is himself about to be become a father.) No, not only not normal. Not right.

  55. And now her favorite sock puppet has read over here and texted the hand err N and reported us to her about how we are so pathetic to be making comments on the child’s book choices. N responds with I don’t waste my time reading that garbage. Of course you read it and then you spend so much time planning and executing the response as if you haven’t read it. No. N did not write the book post to bait Sally because she is too stupid to figure out how to bait other than posting or reposting web pages supporting anti vaccination crap or attacking Sally’son. She has no logic skills so her baiting is name calling, posting lies, or playing the victim card.

  56. I totally agree that the state is not doing much good for these kids. It appears to me that changes need to be made to state laws so they have more teeth to enforce things like the neglect these kids are suffering.

    My oldest daughter was reading at age 3. At age 2 she was reading along with me as I read to her. Slowly it got to where I would let her read a page and I would read a page from a library full of Little Golden books and all 3 of those books pictured, Sesame Street book, and Dr Seuss books. By 1st grade she was reading chapter books Little House on the Prairie, Baby Sitters Club and a series about horses. In first grade she has a vocabulary level of 11.9 grade level. Learning was easy very easy for her. Now my youngest daughter (adopted as a infant right from the hospital) it was not. We knew it would not be easy for her as she stopped breathing at a week old and she was born to a alcohol and drug abusing mother. We were warned that she was going to most likely have learning problems so we were prepared for it. She struggled with reading and math. She also had a speech problem. All of those were fixed with therapy and remedial help. Learning was a bit of a struggle for her always except for art. She is a outstanding artist with a BA in Fine Arts from one of the best private colleges in the state. She owns her own business and is very successful far from a starving artist very far from it.

    The oldest had all the books she wanted bought and from the library. I would rather spend my money for her on books than expensive toys. The youngest she was not into books instead she had art stuff and lost of it. She also had a set of tools at age 5 as she was interested in that. She was one that was good at doing stuff that required working with your hands vs using your brain.

    Both of my girls went to public schools a few of them as we moved. Some were great and a couple were not so great. Youngest was refused remedial help as they claimed her testing did not indicate she need it. Only by tenths of points. I fought for it and glad I did. She was my kid and it was my job to make sure she had all she needed. It is a parents job to fight for their kids to make sure that their life is for the better. I also worked with the youngest one at home too to help her.

    My wish is that the state would step in and require both parents to get mental help and treatment. They also need to be made to take parenting classes over and over and over again until they parent in a productive way for the kids.

    I know this is not going to go over well but I am going to say it. I believe that both of the parents families are as much at fault for this crap too. They need to step up and fight for these kids too. Both of the mothers raised these kids and IMO their jobs are not just done with their kids. They need to fight for their grand kids. As a grandmother I would be on the phone or at the door step every day to CPS and whom ever else to save my grand kids. I would do it even if my kids were not talking to me. We can see the neglect these kids are suffering so I know both grandmothers are seeing it. I know for a fact that one mother is staying silent out of fear as she claims. Fear bull shit they are both states away and are safe from face contact of both of the parents. The grandmothers knew about this years and years before it became viral and they did nothing then. One lived with them for a while so she saw more than most grandmothers would. The other lived near them for some time and knowing that they already lost custody of one child and the abuse that child had to endure and still did nothing by her own admission (I heard it with my own ears). The government will pay grandparents that take grandchildren in to live with them. So maybe it is time for them to get on the bandwagon and help save these kids. There is also extended family such as brothers, sisters, half brothers, half sisters, step brothers and step sisters where the hell are they fighting for these kids? They are all neglecting these kids sitting back and letting strangers fight for the kids.

  57. Just imagine! THIS is the educational milestone that she is bragging about! I hate to imagine the boys’ literacy rate, or lack thereof.

    It speaks to Nicole’s severely detached mindset that she cannot grasp the problem here. Why else would she continue to post damning evidence of their constant, ongoing child neglect? No sane Mother would brag about her child having to spend their personal slave-wages to purchase Little Golden Books online – not because they are vintage, but rather, because at 9 years of age, the child has only just now begun learning how to read.

    And the content?! Jesus! And at her age, only now learning comprehension – how conditioning! Only, the content is for kindergarten. While other girls her age are thinking critically, making friends, and learning about the world, she dreams about motherhood because its the only opportunity given to her. It pains me to realize how utterly robbed this child is – worse than I imagined – that no one has taught her any basic critical thinking skills. She does NOT even know what exists outside of their sheltered existence – no one has told her of the opportunities in this world, say for childbearing. Fucking heartbreaking.

    EDUCATIONAL NEGLECT! Of all crimes perpetrated by the Naugler parents, this is by far, the worst. The Naugler children’s literacy rate, in America no less, might be lower than that of some third world countries.

    Dear “FiftyShadesofNaug”,
    Gawd, I feel stupid from even having to type that screenname. NO, I do not think your post “inspired” Nicole. And NO, Nicole is not “playing us”. This is very real.

  58. ATTENTION Readers:
    There exists a 7 year-old girl in war-torn Allepo with a Twitter following. There are bombs going off all around her. Her little friends are dying. She is hiding, constantly, expecting to die soon, posting prayers and goodbyes. Please visit her Twitter feed. But I warn you; it is graphic and heart-wrenching. She posts her thoughts, pictures of her dead friends, begs for the allowance of aid for her starving people, and also includes pictures of her reading Harry Potter to distract from the bombing all around her. https://twitter.com/AlabedBana

    http://jezebel.com/7-year-old-syrian-girl-with-huge-twitter-following-send-1789427510

    And somehow, meanwhile, here in our very privileged country, a 9 year-old girl has not even been taught to read, regardless of the inherent advantage she has as an American who does not have to worry about forced migration or bombings. For shame, Nicole and Joe!

  59. There exists a 7 year-old girl in war-torn Allepo with a Twitter following.

    I think the child is nine, but yes, it’s awful. Beautiful little girl with two younger brothers, I think.

  60. >>Wonder how a young girl barely in puberty metabolized all of that? Not just the first time she read it, but BOTH times…cause you know, she read them all at least TWICE!<<

    I am not trying to ruin anyone's lunch, but hasn't she had a front row seat to this type of thing all her life…? (#unschoolsexed) How long has this family lived in a one-room shack in a communal bedroom? With Nicole being gone nearly 12 hours a day, it's not like she and Joe are slipping into the poop-filled woods to get it on. It seems obvious to me these parents have non-typical standards with regard to privacy, body boundaries, and sexualizing their kids at a very young age–either by choice, neglect, or ignorance–maybe all the above. Either way, there's no going back once a child's been "exposed" to this type of thing, and there's plenty of evidence on the damage this causes as well (regardless of what groups like NAMBLA say). We humans are far more complex than rabbits, after all, even though some of us breed like them.

  61. Dear God. It is almost comical. All of these comments! And Nicole does not give a shit! Sometimes I think such frenzy empowers her.

    She has an especially dark sense of humor. Not dry, nor clever. Rather, just twisted and infantile.

  62. If anyone might doubt why the child’s reading level matters, read Sally’s post again. These children may be gifted, challenged, self-directed, apathetic, quick studies, learning impaired, or incredibly ordinary kids. Who knows? No one, not even their parents, it seems. The problem is still the same: They are not being educated.

    At best they are seen as “homestead apprentices,” learning by doing, and what they are doing is mostly the homestead chores, while Joe occasionally poses with a obviously-staged steadying hand on whatever is being built.

    For all Nicole’s bragging that her children are free to do whatever they want, I find it telling that she repeatedly pigeonholes them into roles that mostly serve Nicole’s own needs: This one is the Builder, that one the Babysitter, this one the shop Bookkeeper, that one is a natural at Dog Grooming!

    The child who selected (again, probably with assistance) these books would of course choose those that fit in with the label she’s been given all her life: the Nurturer. She may wear that label with pride, or out of obligation; we can’t know. Either way, Nicole will imagine this observed “theme” is evidence that her unschooling works, because it works for Nicole and her imaginary homestead.

    It is tempting to leave her to it, let her create her little compound complete with cottage-industry bow crafting and carpentry, but dammit –

    OK, I’ll spare you the whole rant, Sally already went there, and hers was a very satisfying rant to read. The short version of my own rant: because Democracy. If you need an example of why a democracy needs to educate its citizens in order to function, look no further than Nicole’s own public Facebook profile page, where she mindlessly re-posts whatever comes through her sausage-grinder of a news feed, long on bias, weak on facts, all but bereft of truth, its only purpose to incite and feed outrage.

    There was a lot more to this comment, but I realized I was sounding like a crotchety old person pounding indignantly on my trusty old Smith-Corona: “CRITICAL THINKING!!!!”

    So I’ll wrap up rather abruptly and just say that it matters to all of us whether or not Nicole’s children are receiving a proper education, or any education at all, and so far we’ve seen blessed little evidence of education happening on the Blessed Little Homestead.

  63. There’s an uglier possibility motivating the promotion of O. as an over the top baby fanatic that we’re not talking about.

    O. is a unique little girl. I actually quite adore her. I admire her spunky take charge nature, she’s a lovely child. But in parenting O. I think the Naugs have been faced with some interesting challenges that I don’t think they’re handling well…and I think that’s starting to show.

    If you follow the progression of photos, both in her chosen activities, her chosen playmates (always her brothers, rarely her big sister) her physical posture and gestures, her choices of wardrobe……O. is either one more hell of a “Tomboy”, or she has a little different gender identity than the average little girl.

    I was actually pretty impressed when Nicole let her cut her hair, and O. obviously was thrilled with the result. But I noticed that Nicole did something very uncharacteristic afterward. She took O. to a real hair salon afterward. One thing the Naugs don’t spend money on…is hair. Maybe she did this to “correct” what Nicole felt was a mistake? I’ve seen some of Nicole’s strongest supporters give her crap about tolerating O’s Tomboy choices. It’s also apparent on the webpages of The New Bride’s family that gay is not an option.

    Is there something else motivating the Naug’s insistence in casting this girl in the “mommy” role? Does she really *want* to raise her little brother like a living doll, or is this forced feminization? Is this a response to something perceived as a potential problem?

    Not meaning to make any assumptions about this adorable little girl. (for all I know, she’s straight as an arrow and loves babies to high heaven) But it does beg the question: If one of the Naug children were gay, would that be OK? Would they be allowed to be who they are, or would there be efforts to control and “correct” an expression of less usual sexuality?

    Last I checked, the LDS church was ok with “feelings of same sex attraction” but still required members to either stay celibate or marry opposite sex partners and produce large families in spite of their feelings. Baptists (the new bride’s family) are pretty openly anti-gay as a general rule.

    Anyone know if the Naugs are involved at an LDS church these days? I know some bridges have been burned. Do they still identify as LDS?

    Are these silly baby books an effort to deflect an underlying fear?

  64. Anyone know if the Naugs are involved at an LDS church these days?

    No, they are not, to my knowledge.

    Do they still identify as LDS?

    When it suits them. Religion was always just a tool.

  65. What’s funny…is in one of tube comments, blh already had a ton of golden books from her child hood, as she states. She also mentions that dear Mr N had threatened to throw books out cause they have so many…imagine that…a book hoarder but no one really reads.

  66. >>O. is either one more hell of a “Tomboy”, or she has a little different gender identity than the average little girl.<< Interesting thoughts, Michelle D. I have been pondering this as well. In a separate comment I posed the possibility of her being internally driven to identify as a boy BECAUSE she is being used as the mother/nurturer in the family (forced role). A role she does not want to fulfill OR it feels too burdensome for her. In this case, turning herself into a boy would be a passive act of rebellion if she is not permitted to express her negative thoughts and feelings on the matter. Sexual abuse can also be a factor when these things occur. Is this the child that ran away? This is pure speculation and conjecture, I realize, but fascinating nonetheless.

    Somewhere I thought I read a comment where someone was scolding Nicole for *forcing* the girl to cut her hair. Some women (mothers) do not like daughters, it's true. Especially mothers with a narcissistic nature who consider other females (any females) a threat. Especially when those daughters are young and supple and/or on the edge of puberty. Hell, being forced to watch a live childbirth time and time again could be enough to cause this girl to reject her gender. If it was sufficiently traumatizing at a very young age (preverbal), these feelings may exist on a subconscious level but drive external behaviors. I personally know of a case where the parents created a girl out of their son. He was forced to wear dresses and not allowed to cut his hair, obviously creating deep psychological problems for him all throughout his life. Time will tell. I wish this child the best. I hope she finds the love, help, and support she needs no matter the outcome.

  67. Michelle D. I’ve had those same thoughts but Nicole has exposed her children to some very traumatic and extreme examples of womanhood, and repeatedly. I would have opted for not following NN’s role at that age I am positive and would have probably tried to identify in any way possible with a masculine identity. I too think NN is purposely labeling her with “mommy” for a very calculated reason. I also was repulsed by ‘mommy’ books at this age knowing how young so many believe a girl should become a “mommy” and after reading Jojo’s ‘biological readiness’ BS. It is so sad when NN screams “freedom” and her kids are the least free and most enslaved of anyone. I hope O. one day is able to decide for herself without N’s oppression.

    Perhaps she is also appealing to patriarchal fundy funding. I first became aware of this family from following an abusive fundy fam and they did follow and support her openly for a while.

  68. Wasn’t O. the child who was picked up by the neighbor walking on the road miles from home? Remember the sheriff visited and wanted to see her to make sure she was ok after the neighbor reported dropping her back at the shitstead? Am I remembering that correctly?

  69. poorkids–“What’s funny…is in one of tube comments, blh already had a ton of golden books from her child hood, as she states. She also mentions that dear Mr N had threatened to throw books out cause they have so many…imagine that…a book hoarder but no one really reads.”

    That is one of their guest admins as evidenced by the ‘-H’ signature at the end of the post.

  70. That is one of their guest admins as evidenced by the ‘-H’ signature at the end of the post.

    I have strong doubts about the reality of those “guest admins.” 🙂

  71. With the letter -H after that statement (about collecting books/hubby threating to throw them away) that means it was one of the unnamed moderators/admins that help run the page. I like many doubt if there is really other people helping to run the page. I have always questioned who are these non-named moderators.

    And also — if there are other people helping to run the page — they can make a post as themselves. When you run a FB fan page you have the option to like/post as the page or like/post as yourself. I would think the comment like that would be best suited as posting as yourself.

  72. Again, why not something a little better to read? An MP3 player? So they can NOT read. Hmm

    But remember, she doesn’t read this blog…here’s Mrs N ..again

    Yesterday some very miserable people attacked my daughters choice of books, and I’m turn, attacked our parenting skills. None of us sought their approval, Olivia found the books on Amazon (by herself) and ordered them along with an MP3 player like her sister bought. She showed me the items in her cart, I showed her how to enter her gift card (we but them at Speedway to earn speedway points). We have prime so shipping was fast and free. I also showed her how to order ebooks for the kindles.

    I was quite discouraged at the number of people who would mock a child for reading any book, regardless of grade level. These same people mocked the content of said books. Some even expressed their sadness in her desire to “just be a mommy” as if not aspiring to other things is sad.

    But this is going to be one of those discussion posts I was talking about the other day. Children and reading.

    According to the NEAP reading and comprehension scores are dropping. The amount of children reading for pleasure is about 50% for elementary children and it drops as they get older.

    So why do you think that is? We as a nation spend a lot of money on education (national average is $10,000 a year per student) and yet reading levels aren’t improving and children and even adults aren’t reading for pleasure. We are graduating functionally illiterate students. Nearly 20% of high school graduates fall into that category. Only 25% of college graduates are deemed proficient. That’s according to the Federal Dept of Educations report in 2015. And the stats haven’t changed much over the past decade.

    So the argument for stricter homeschool laws completely missed the bigger picture.

    What do you see as the core issue and what solutions would you like to see implemented to increase reading skills as a whole?

  73. ” where she mindlessly re-posts whatever comes through her sausage-grinder of a news feed, long on bias, weak on facts, all but bereft of truth, its only purpose to incite and feed outrage.”

    What’s funny is when she posts something because from the title it would appear to support her position, but when you read the article it clearly does quite the opposite. It’s rare, but it underscores that she doesn’t read much of what she posts.

    Re: younger female child. She may be a child who simply is more “masculine” in interests. I was. Didn’t stop me from getting married to my husband (opposite gender) and we made a few kids together. Not more than we could possibly afford though – unlike Joe and Nicole. Hell, he didn’t even pretend to afford his eldest – the one for whom he still owes back child support.

  74. Nicole posted this on her public Facebook page today, knowing she has very intelligent folk following her who do not agree with her care of her children.

    “Yesterday some very miserable people attacked my daughters choice of books, and I’m turn, attacked our parenting skills. None of us sought their approval, Olivia found the books on Amazon (by herself) and ordered them along with an MP3 player like her sister bought. She showed me the items in her cart, I showed her how to enter her gift card (we but them at Speedway to earn speedway points). We have prime so shipping was fast and free. I also showed her how to order ebooks for the kindles.

    I was quite discouraged at the number of people who would mock a child for reading any book, regardless of grade level. These same people mocked the content of said books. Some even expressed their sadness in her desire to “just be a mommy” as if not aspiring to other things is sad.

    But this is going to be one of those discussion posts I was talking about the other day. Children and reading.

    According to the NEAP reading and comprehension scores are dropping. The amount of children reading for pleasure is about 50% for elementary children and it drops as they get older.

    So why do you think that is? We as a nation spend a lot of money on education (national average is $10,000 a year per student) and yet reading levels aren’t improving and children and even adults aren’t reading for pleasure. We are graduating functionally illiterate students. Nearly 20% of high school graduates fall into that category. Only 25% of college graduates are deemed proficient. That’s according to the Federal Dept of Educations report in 2015. And the stats haven’t changed much over the past decade.

    So the argument for stricter homeschool laws completely missed the bigger picture.

    What do you see as the core issue and what solutions would you like to see implemented to increase reading skills as a whole?”
    ——-

    Nicole, just how stupid do you think your varied followers are?
    Do you want your children tested and added to the overall NEAP scoring?
    Are you saying that because of the scoring of some of the kids, who go to public school, you don’t have to make sure your children are literate?

    Nicole ask “What do you see as the core issue and what solutions would you like to see implemented to increase reading skills as a whole?”

    REALLY NICOLE! YOU ARE THE CORE ISSUE
    The core issue is people such as yourself allowing their children to fall behind in reading and necessary skills to make a decent life for them. It’s not a matter of “increasing reading skills as a whole” (asinine asinine asinine)

    The core issue is each and every child being truly cared for by their guardian/parent
    And teachers and get the push they need to learn to read… not lazy assed magic “my children will learn when they want/need to.”
    The NEAP scores have been steadily rising over the years. Did you read that part of test interpretation…
    Your attempt at redirecting and using your child as a shield against deserved criticism is asinine, and makes me fear even more for your children.

    Shame on you, Nicole.

  75. This sounds plagiarized (from Nicole’s post): “We as a nation spend a lot of money on education (national average is $10,000 a year per student) and yet reading levels aren’t improving and children and even adults aren’t reading for pleasure. We are graduating functionally illiterate students. Nearly 20% of high school graduates fall into that category. Only 25% of college graduates are deemed proficient. That’s according to the Federal Dept of Educations report in 2015. And the stats haven’t changed much over the past decade.”

    It’s probably copied off a pro-homeschooling website. I did homeschool, so I am not against homeschooling by any means, but I’m well aware of my failures and the over-the-top ideals I had back then. It pains me greatly to see where I failed my children; and I did fail them. My youngest is now a senior in public school. Had he been there from the beginning, he would likely not be struggling in some of the ways he struggles now. I have apologized to him but that doesn’t change his reality. There are flaws in all educational structures, I think, but the idealism I see in Nicole alarms me because it is a peek into what I used to be, and I cringe. It mostly hurts my heart for her kids. Humility and being “teachable” go a long way, Nicole. I, too, have wished I could rule the world (or my kid’s world) and the truth is, life just doesn’t work that way.

  76. Yes, Nicole, aspiring to “just be a mommy” IS sad.

    Why? Because being a responsible mommy means being able to protect your children and provide for them.

    If you are someone who focuses her entire interests on “just being a mommy” and you happen to marry the wrong man who becomes abusive, you will be “just be a victim” with no options, and no way to be a *good* mommy who gets her children out of bad situations. This happened to a shocking number of women who subscribed to the “just a mommy” school of thought, and eventually lead to a social revolution.

    There is nothing wrong with being a mommy. Or a daddy. Parenting is the most important work most of us do in life.

    But good mommy skills alone….cannot rent an apartment and put food in your kid’s bellies when their father is an addicted, abusive, piece of shite who refuses to work. REAL good mommy skills include backup plans for providing in case daddy dies or is an unfit parent. REAL good mommy skills include realizing the realistic disbursement of resources, and understanding that each new baby spreads limited resources even more dangerously thin for the others.

    Raising kids in neglected poverty is cruel, and it will end badly, as the Naugs are soon to discover, sadly.

    Other than circus folk, what kind of girls would be willing to marry boys who have no education and plan to live with mom and dad on the shitstead forever? (and yeah, I think I’m selling circus folk short.)

    If you raise your girls to be dependent, submissive, neglected little shadows who accept a tiny little world and want to pump out babies like rabbits…..what kind of guys will be attracted to them?

    This whole unschool thing looks adorable in pictures of little kids enjoying nature and playing. And maybe it can be a cool way to do elementary school (if the kids are learning the basics on schedule). But at some point, kids have to transition to being able to cope inside traditional models.

    Their “carefree” lifestyle doesn’t look as appealing when an uneducated young person is trying to get a decent job or buy a car, or have an adult romantic relationship…. or you know…achieve any kind of independence from the parents who intellectually crippled him, socially stunted him, and fucked his life up hopelessly.

    In another ten years (and God it goes quick) half of these kids will be over 20. There will be a gaggle of teens and the baby will be 11. What will the future hold for them? Jail? Disappearances? Abusive marriages? Weird incestuous pairings for lack of other options on Mom and Pop’s shitstead? More babies covered in filth? Shotgun weddings followed by divorces? Court orders? A marijuana growing sting? More begging? More child welfare involvement? Addiction? A whole row of creepy garden sheds pumping out wood smoke so thick that just passing them in the store brings a noticeable waft of smoked sausage? Must sell more BOWS!

    Something tells me that the Third Act of the Naug saga won’t be anything like Nicole imagines where her children miraculously become doctors and master craftsmen and authors and bosses of other people’s children. Because even if they had the natural talent…those things require follow through and hard work……something the Naugs have never modeled, and never will.

    They won’t have half a dozen happy sibling families living together in harmony sharing the community Turdis, having marshmallow roasts most nights, and singing the praises of their wise and loving parents who provided this oasis of milk and honey. Oh hells no. The ones whose brains still work a little who are not completely dead inside will get the hell out of there. Little Miss O. had the right idea when she was seven!

    I imagine Nicole will keep shucking out babies until she has one with a severe disability in her 40’s.

    But yeah…within ten years…this whole thing will be explode like the ticking bomb it is.

    Very likely much, much sooner.

  77. @Michelle Duman: The typical course for parents like the Nauglers (and don’t kid yourselves, Mr. and Mrs. Naugler: you’re nothing special, just unusually prolific and squalid) is that they hobble the kids in order to keep them close and then get mad at them when they are unable to get high-paying jobs in order to give their parents lots of money. Mrs. Naugler will probably attempt to vicariously have another baby by taking over the parental role from one of her daughters or daughters-in-law, maybe even the one who is for some reason living in the mud and poo right now. She may even attempt to sue for grandparents’ rights. Look for her to describe her new grandchild as “my baby” and talk a lot of smack about her daughter-in-law, although she may do this privately and publicly be just as sweet as she can be–for a while. I’m not so sure about the paterfamilias. He may be relieved to peel the kids away one by one, or he may get into chest-puffing contests with his sons and demand all their money. I don’t want to get into his creepy attitude toward girls and women because it makes me ill.

    I have no idea whether the eldest son on the place is their “golden child” (the one kid who gets picked for all the praise, although this doesn’t mean help or guidance) and enmeshed with them, or their scapegoat and afraid to leave in case some other kid gets stuck with that role, or just keeping his head down and hoping to get a job that will let him move his family out of there. Whoever the golden children are–and there are nearly always golden children–they’ll probably end up stuck in the same hopelessness and filth as their parents and may take years, if ever, to wake up to how badly they have been betrayed. The scapegoat(s) will probably leave as soon as they can, if they aren’t written off and kicked out first, but may spend years unconsciously reenacting their upbringing with a boss, SO, or landlord in the parental role until they realize what they are doing. They other kids may be kicked out or harassed and stalked when they try to leave–or both, since narcissism isn’t rational.

  78. @Michelle, there are successful unschoolers. The key is that the Naugs are not unschoolers. There are several unschooling conventions held all over the country every year. Older teens and grown unschoolers have panel discussions talking about what they’ve done. Many go off to traditional colleges, just like their peers in public and private schools. Many go to trade school. Many find more untraditional modes of employment. Two of my children are currently preparing their bios for a convention next year along with helping to plan activities at said convention.

    I really hate that Nicole gives unschoolers a bad name. She is no more an unschooler than she is a homesteader yet people continue to assume what they are doing is unschooling, it’s not. Just a small bone of contention I have. Unschooling is merely a form of homeschooling. It can actually be more difficult than traditional homeschooling when done properly because it involves extreme involvement and guidance. Despite what Nicole says it is not just letting children do whatever they want. It is about help them find their passions and guiding them. It can also involve a substantial economic investment. Many unschoolers travel extensively, leading a more nomadic lifestyle but many live in traditional homes. I know unschooling parents from a variety of backgrounds from the more nomadic, to executives, to college professors, to doctors, to true homesteads, heck I know a few former elementary and secondary teachers who unschool.

    So please stop thinking Nicole represents unschoolers, they do not unschool, they unparent just like they are not homesteaders they are squatters.

  79. Michelle Duman,

    How dare you freely discuss this child’s gender identity! Your perspective is flawed and highly inappropriate to share in this setting. Have you any propriety?! You contribute to and perpetuate Nicole’s claims of outrageous, obsessed critics who cross the line.

    Your words belittle those advocates who attempt to spread awareness regarding the blatant educational neglect – and other withholding of inherent rights of the child – that the Joe and Nicole Naugler are responsible for.

  80. So please stop thinking Nicole represents unschoolers, they do not unschool, they unparent just like they are not homesteaders they are squatters.

    Excellent point and I will take it to heart. I plead guilty. Please forgive me for doing that.

  81. P.O. thank you for saying that. That comment about gender identity put me off. It was an uncalled for statement.

    I’ve been noticing that their seems to be a lot of stalking and speculation going on, and it’s really putting me off.

    One thing I have learned about living in this small community (not to far from the Nauglers ), is I keep to myself. If I look for a job it’s not in this area. I have nothing to hide, but I also don’t need people up in my business.

  82. Sally said “Excellent point and I will take it to heart. I plead guilty. Please forgive me for doing that.”

    Thank you!! And no problem at all. I understand that unschooling is a foreign concept to most folks but to those of us in the know it’s apparent that Nicole is not homeschooling her children in any way, including unschooling. It’s just frustrating to see someone like her be heralded as an example. So really thank you. It’s just my pet peeve. I dislike parents who are doing so much work educating their children and giving them countless opportunities being lumped in with the likes of the Nauglers.

  83. P.O. Given the suicide rates and runaway rates of children with gender identity issues or atypical sexuality born into religious families who reject/shame/try to convert them…..it’s a prudent topic.

    Socially we MUST address these issues in a public way because the suffering of the kids going through the rejection of their families can be life threatening. The death of a child is something I wouldn’t wish on anyone. I’d do everything in my power to spare even the Naugs that kind of unbearable pain.

    I don’t give a shit if I piss you off or make you uncomfortable if my concerns reach someone who can help a child trapped in a family that reacts with intolerance. Or even if they piss Nicole off enough to prompt her to do some research. Or maybe they prompt someone close to Nicole to pay closer attention to O.’s welfare, even if they think I’m dead wrong, and the wicked witch of the west.

    If you review my posts, you’ll see that I freely admit that I don’t know for sure that the child in question has atypical gender identity/sexuality…..but that there are some observable indicators in multiple photos over the years that suggest it could be a possibility. It’s a gut feeling I refuse to ignore.

    I have worked extensively with LGBT youth. The thought of one of the Naug kids dealing with these issues alone scares the hell out of me. They’re already isolated and unsupported. Dealing with these issues in a religiously intolerant family with no other trusted adults to talk to could have a tragic outcome. The children have no outside lifelines. Kids this sheltered and naive would have additional risk as runaways. It’s a serious issue.

    Is it proper to talk about? Frankly, I don’t care. If a child’s life *could* be on the line, I’m going to say something.

  84. Dinah, I’m not anti-unschooling. Particularly for elementary, I love unschooling. I’ve seen dedicated homeschoolers like yourself (who realize child-led is still a tremendous amount of parent-work) do an amazing job with it. I actually know an unschool family who has done a terrific job with their kids. Both kids decided to pursue college degree based careers, and started community college at 16. One went on to a four year degree, and one hit a road block, and ended up switching gears and going to culinary school. Both kids are doing great.

    The point I’m trying to make, is that as kids get older, there are formal academic competencies and skill sets that are required for pursuing most professions. ie: if a kid wants a college degree, he has to read and write and do math at a college level, he must have the ability to organize and study, the discipline to work toward the grades he needs within the system, etc.

    Granted, not ALL gainful employment requires a college degree or certification….but so many jobs do, it’s important to be able to cope in a traditional academic environment and not be limited by a fear/rejection of it….if that’s what your dream requires.

    Even trade schools are much more academically selective now. My nephew recently applied to an electrician apprenticeship and we were very surprised when they asked for his ACT scores and asked him to sit for a very involved aptitude test. Incidentally, he didn’t get into the program this year, and was advised to go to community college to improve his algebra and physics if he wanted to be considered next year.

    I do think unschoolers can do just fine in life. And yes, I do realize the Naugs are not an example of what the unschooling I’m acquainted with looks like. I’m sorry you have to deal with that.

  85. “There is also extended family such as brothers, sisters, half brothers, half sisters, step brothers and step sisters where the hell are they fighting for these kids? They are all neglecting these kids sitting back and letting strangers fight for the kids.”

    Old Time Farm Girl, I disagree with you VERY much. Why should other relatives be on the hook for stopping their own lives to fight for nieces/nephews, step-nieces/nephews, and cousins? What can they do? CPS already has an open case, and it’s expecting a stupidly high lot to think that other relatives should try to take in a dozen minors, especially when a lot of those kids will need a lot of therapy to ever lead normal lives. Should relatives be draining their own resources to hire attorneys? It’s easier said than done to say that extended relatives should be handling this, and then saying they’re guilty of child abuse for not. No matter how wrong it is, Kentucky law doesn’t see that neglect as neglect. Extended relatives can do literally nothing when the laws are so fucked up that abuse is legal.

  86. I think a more likely reason for O to be reading mommy books is that she fantasizes about having one, not that she wants to be one more than she already is.

  87. poorkids, I think reading for fun has gone down because more adults have to work longer hours, and don’t get to set an example of reading for pleasure for their kids.

    I’m also bothered by looking down on “just” wanting to be a mom. Yeah, at her age she should have many dreams, but what’s wrong with wanting to be a mom? At 10, my top life goal was being a mom, and now I’m a stay-at-home mom. It’s a real job! And it’s hard! And you’re always on call!

  88. Kaylee
    I disagree with you.
    There is LOTS that they can do especially grandparents, Aunts and Uncles. They KNOW what these kids are living like they have seen it. They could at the very least talk to CPS to give them information that will help save these kids. Both grandmothers are IMO as neglectful to these kids as their parents.
    The only one I have seen step forward and try to help was their half brother. He went to court to testify. Imagine that a young man that lived through hell at the hands of these two people the only one that had enough nerve to come forward. Mean while two grandmothers, at least 2 uncles that I know of and 1 aunt were not there to defend their blood and flesh.

    At first I bought into one grandmother saying she was scared as she was threatened. Now I am calling bullshit on that. First off what better place than a court room to tell the truth and voice the threats. Voicing those threats could have very well helped CPS and the state to save those kids.
    Second of all both grandmothers live far from the parents. Not like they have the means or a decent vehicle to travel that far to do anything. Even if they did there are things to protect the whistle blowers. Threatening a witness is a very serious offense. By testifying in court it would make them a witness.
    Last of all how much time does it take out of their lives to write a letter or make a phone call to give the information that they know? Not much.

    Not sure how you were raised but I was raised that you helped family and protect them. Ignoring the abuse of these kids is not helping them instead endangering them. As much as you babble on and on here about different things I find it very hard to believe that you would keep your mouth shut if it came to your family in a case like this. So stop the damn double talk and either put up or shut up. It is plain and simple extended family has FAILED these kids too. It is easy to tell a stranger that family is willing to take the kids in but it does not mean shit if not told to the state or CPS. One would have to be blind to not see that extended family is failing these kids.

  89. Truth is no one truly know if relatives have tried to help or have called CPS in the pass or not. I believe Nikki and Joe mentioned that CPS had been called and to the home several times prior to the “big event”.

    CPS can be at a home several times and nothing come of it …. I had a neighbor that had CPS show up nearly monthly. Nothing came of it. The parents knew their rights. They were nice, chatted with CPS met them outside, never let them in the house, or even go up to the door. Never let them see or talk to the kids, etc. In the end CPS could do nothing depite how they or others might have felt. The only way they were going to get access to the kids or home was a warrant and the only way to get a warrant was to have cause…. Never going to get it on a phone report that was not enough evidence for the judge.

  90. Truth is I know for a fact one grandmother would not talk at all due to threats made to her.
    I will not go into how this is known or whom talked to her for the safety of both parties.

  91. I’ve read this blog since it started but this is my first time commenting. I first got interested in the Nauglers because my brother, his wife and their kids are also homesteaders who don’t allow their kids to social interact with anyone and who “unschool,” which is pretty much no schooling at all. My sister-in-law is mentally ill and has placed all her self-esteem into being a Mommy of small children. She needs them to need her. She needs them to be dependent. If they can read on their own then they don’t need Mommy to read them a bedtime story. If they have interests outside of their family and the farm then they might want to leave ect.

    My niece was nearly completely illiterate until she was 9. She covered it well. She has a fantastic memory and she would memorize books that her Mom read her so when distant family came to visit she would trot down with her book and could “read” them a story. She has finally learned to read (mostly due her six year old brother getting a phonics workbook from an uncle that stayed with them for a few weeks – Mommy dearest couldn’t throw it out while her brother was there, otherwise she would have, she threw out educational things i bought the kids for YEARS – they both got obsessed with it, when I visited I found them out hiding behind the barn using it because they were so starved for learning and knowledge). She now LOVES reading. That said, as a child in a similar context to the Naugler child, there is NO WAY IN HELL she would read those books. She is obsessed with Harry Potter and children’s detective books. There is something more here then just emotional neglect and social isolation…

    I still have a lot of worries for my niece and nephews, warranted worries, about how they will ever leave the farm and what skills they will have, but in comparison to the Nauglers … at least they have beds, and a house, and eat fresh fruits, veg and meat that come from their own farm.

  92. Farm Girl, CPS KNOWS what is going on, and in their area, where there isn’t enough funds, CPS is going to take the kids in more critical situations, like kids getting beaten or raped. There is literally fucking nothing that extended relatives can do that isn’t already being done. Frankly is incredibly awful that you’re insinuating that those relatives should just be thorns in CPS’s side until they take 12 kids into foster care and leave 12 kids in houses where they’re beaten and raped. CPS FUCKING KNOWS, and the Naugler kids just aren’t the most critical. If you want to get mad at anybody, get mad at the system being underfunded.

    I was raised in the household that took care of my relatives’ shit. Growing up, we always had various relatives living with us to take care of them. As an adult, to hell with them. I’m burned out, and even though there are kids, I’m done being the safety net. I can’t afford to be the safety net, and I’m not willing to continue to drain myself financially to take care of the crap other adults are causing. I’m done having cops come to my home because an aunt or a cousin gave my address. There gets to be a point when it’s not help anymore, and becomes enabling. People shouldn’t be allowed to hide behind their kids, and that’s what my relatives have done for my whole life, and that’s what Nicole and Joe are doing. If not being willing to let my life be dragged down anymore makes me a bad person in your eyes, then fuck you, and you should be glad you haven’t been taken extreme advantage of. You are seriously clueless about how much relatives can help when CPS is already fucking involved, and you are alleviating Nicole and Joe of their responsibility by displacing some of the blame on others and accusing other people of being child abusers because they aren’t doing…what, exactly? WHEN CPS IS ALREADY INVOLVED. I hope you’re happy with how you’re excusing them when 100% of the blame lies squarely on their shoulders.

  93. Redbricks, at least a couple of us here unschool. Unschooling isn’t not schooling. What it is is setting goals and getting there without a set curriculum. In a public school, lesson plans can be set out a month or more in advance so that a teacher can tell exactly what will be worked on on what day. Unschooling doesn’t do that. What REAL unschooling is is chucking curriculum-setting and using what a kid is interested in on any given day to help them accomplish educational goals. If a goal of ours is for our daughter to understand fraction halves and quarters by December 15th, we will use whatever she’s interested in right now to help her learn those fraction, how to halve a whole, double quarters, etc. That might be banking, or it could be money. What unschooling is NOT is refusing to educate. REAL unschooling takes a lot of time, creativity, and flexibility, and setting goals.

  94. I think both of you (Farm Girl and Kaylee) are speaking from your own experiences and biases. We don’t really know how much or how little the relatives have been involved with CPS. We can’t know because they don’t make stuff like that public. In addition, sometimes people reveal stuff to others with the caveat that they don’t want the information to be public.

    Kaylee is correct that CPS already knows what is going on, and they have opted not to do anything overtly. The reason is almost certainly due to the sheer number of kids involved, the lack of funding they have (even though they are supposedly selling babies and using the money to fund the entire state coffers, according to Nicole and her idiotic followers), and the triage criteria they use.

    Please try to remain civil, guys. I know this is emotional for both of us (for most of us), but make an effort. 🙂

  95. I agree Sally that being civil to each other, even when we disagree is very important here.
    I would stop reading here if Sally were to let us go at each other with nasty verbiage.
    Foul language makes an argument weaker and only makes an audience (me) fade away.
    I see both sides.
    I’ve had to rescue adult screw ups in my life and it drains you of anything that is happy and normal. But I don’t regret my being involved. I’m just glad that eventually I was able to step away.
    But, I also see the side that desperately wants the extended family to step up and rescue these children.
    The problem is, they can’t… not legally. They can only work quietly in the back ground and hope the children are not whisked away or further damaged by their screwed up parents.
    I think the people who post here on Sally’s blog are very intelligent, compassionate, and capable of discussing opposing opinions without roughing each other up verbally.
    Sally’s blog serves a good purpose, and I’m glad to be able to safely write here and blow off steam.
    Believe me cuss words do come out of my mouth when I read Nicole’s crap…( see?)…
    But, Sally, in turn, has made me laugh out loud.( So has Al)
    Thankyou Sally.

  96. REAL unschooling takes a lot of time, creativity, and flexibility, and setting goals.

    It would indeed. And I suspect that most dedicated homeschoolers incorporate that sort of thing into their schooling as well. For example, when we were homeschooling Nathan, we had dairy goats. I walked outside to check on one that was due to kid, and found her in labor. I ran back to the house, interrupted Nathan who was busy doing math, and yelled, “Come on. We’re going to do science.” 🙂

    Or the day he went to the eye doctor for a vision exam. I explained that he was homeschooled, and the guy stopped everything, put me in the examining chair and showed Nathan how to look at my eyes and how to test vision and all sorts of stuff. More science on the fly.

    I loved the spontaneity of it, but organizing that to make sure you ended up with a well-rounded education would be challenging.

    Nathan, for example, did not like math. He learned it, but he didn’t like it. Given his choice, he’d have never done any of it.

  97. Foul language makes an argument weaker and only makes an audience (me) fade away.

    Come on. I love to swear. I do it a lot. 🙂

  98. Hi Kaylee, my apologies. I know that true unschooling is hard work. What I meant is that the “unschooling” my niece and nephews do is on par with the Naugler’s unschooling. It means no school and no learning at all. I did not intend to make a blanket statement about all unschoolers! Like the Nauglers, my sister-in-law hides behind unschooling as a way to do nothing at all.

  99. 😄 Sally
    I swear as well. But it’s usually due to a personally annoying situation.
    … I’m sure my famous last word will be “shit”.

  100. Hell, I swear when I’m happy. I swear when I’m angry. I swear a lot. I don’t care what anyone thinks about it and I have a pretty decent vocabulary.

  101. The unschooler I know keeps a checklist of topics to be learned over the next year-ish and updates it daily. The irony is that an actual homestead seems like a great place to unschool. Just include the kid in your everyday work. Biology, mechanics, arithmetic, meteorology, ecology…

  102. Just damn proud of myself *patting myself on the back*
    I restrained myself and did not use any curse words. I really really wanted to use the fuck word but I did not go there I kept it civil. But I see that she did so that shows me who the better person is. 😉 Shows that I must have hit a nerve. Like my dad use to say if you say something and it is the truth and it pisses some one off too bad it is on them to fix it or deal with it.

    FYI Kaylee you have no clue how much I know first hand. First hand in being I heard it with my own ears. They talked a good talk but would not step up to do anything to help the kids. Also just so you know I would rather eat shit before I would tell a lie. I do not lie I tell it straight up and call it the way I see it. If you knew what I know first hand you would not be making assumptions.

    Never once did I say that the asswipe parents Jojo and Nicole are, were or should be blameless for the neglect. So you can understand my point I will spell it out for you. Both Jojo and Nicole are totally to blame for the neglect and extended family IMO are responsible for knowing what is going on and letting it go on, especially grandmothers as they both know of things the parents have done. Both of those women raise the crappy ass parents to these kids and for them to sit back and let their grand kids be neglected and abused makes them to blame too.

    Also you have no clue what I have or have not done for extended family. I have helped extended family a lot some were grateful and some were pissed off but they got my help.

    I can assure you any child, step child, grand child, step grand child, step great grand child, niece, nephew or even cousin ever treated their kids like these kids are treated and I knew about it they would rather have CPS breathing down their neck and on their door step vs me doing it. I would do what ever it took to help the kids even if it meant putting myself at risk to do it. Using the threats were made as a wall to stand behind is bull as there are too many things in place to protect the whistle blower. I do not have a degree in law but I have a good understanding of it and how it works so I know what I am talking about.

    As a matter of a fact the shit that Nicole is pulling with babbling about exposing Alex could land her ass in trouble as he was a witness on the stand and this case is not settled yet. He could be called back at any time for more testimony. Nicole has posted that CPS was back there again investigating. They could find something and decide to continue the case with more testimony to back up any thing they might find and call him back to the stand. Her threats are being made to attempt to intimidate the boy making him fearful of saying anything more.

    She can get a class D felony slapped on her for –
    524.050 Tampering with a witness.
    (1) A person is guilty of tampering with a witness when, knowing that a person is or may be called as a witness in an official proceeding, he:
    (a) Induces or attempts to induce the witness to absent himself or otherwise avoid appearing or testifying at the official proceeding with intent to influence the outcome thereby; or
    (b) Knowingly makes any false statement or practices any fraud or deceit with intent to affect the testimony of the witness.
    (2) Tampering with a witness is a Class D felony.

  103. I just want to say thank you for presenting and giving others the space to present facts and opinions about homeschooling and unschooling.

    I think part of the problem re unschooling is that the name doesn’t match what good unschoolers do. “Unschooling” sounds like “no schooling” to lots of people and thus, provides cover for those who abuse the term to cover for their own laziness.

    Then again, “no set curricula but lots of achievable goals-ing” doesn’t have much of a ring to it. 😁

    We homeschool because our country doesn’t know what to do with gifted kids and especially gifted/learning disabled kids. 2-E is the term now. Twice exceptional. At any rate, we have this fantastic resource of really smart, if unconventionally wired people whose parents have no choice but to homeschool if they don’t want their kids to end up miserable, bored, lonely, bullied, destructive (intelligence needs an outlet) or worse. And yet I have run into resistance from family because homeschooling gets a bad rep from people like the Nauglers.

    So yes, the kids’ education is a matter of social commentary because Nicole tries to brand herself as this great homeschooler/unschoolers and the rest of us have to deal with the fallout of her educational neglect. It’s not a slam on the kids, it’s a slam on the parents, and I think most people realize that.

  104. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3949986/Is-swearing-sign-intelligence-People-curse-larger-vocabulary-don-t.html

    Dave and I were talking about this morning. The cliche is that if you swear, it’s a sign that you don’t have a large vocabulary, and that obviously is not the case. I think there’s another reason for it, though.

    People who swear typically are not particularly religious. People who don’t often are. Religious people, on average, have less education than non-religious people. NOTE: Before anyone gets all butthurt, these are the stats. They are averages. It’s simply a fact that very religious people tend to have less education (and more divorces, and more unwanted pregnancies) than those who are not religious.

    I think the swearing is a side effect, not the cause of anything.

  105. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3949986/Is-swearing-sign-intelligence-People-curse-larger-vocabulary-don-t.html

    Dave and I were talking about this morning. The cliche is that if you swear, it’s a sign that you don’t have a large vocabulary, and that obviously is not the case. I think there’s another reason for it, though.

    People who swear typically are not particularly religious. People who don’t often are. Religious people, on average, have less education than non-religious people. NOTE: Before anyone gets all butthurt, these are the stats. They are averages. It’s simply a fact that very religious people tend to have less education (and more divorces, and more unwanted pregnancies) than those who are not religious.

    I think the swearing is a side effect, not the cause of anything.

  106. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3949986/Is-swearing-sign-intelligence-People-curse-larger-vocabulary-don-t.html

    Dave and I were talking about this morning. The cliche is that if you swear, it’s a sign that you don’t have a large vocabulary, and that obviously is not the case. I think there’s another reason for it, though.

    People who swear typically are not particularly religious. People who don’t often are. Religious people, on average, have less education than non-religious people. NOTE: Before anyone gets all butthurt, these are the stats. They are averages. It’s simply a fact that very religious people tend to have less education (and more divorces, and more unwanted pregnancies) than those who are not religious.

    I think the swearing is a side effect, not the cause of anything.

  107. For some glorious examples of salty language visit the FB page Things Anti-Vaxers Say (I believe I first stumbled on this page via a link on the BLTAM page – the real one, not Nicole’s “mirror” page, which no one would ever mistake for the real deal). The site’s sole purpose is to expose the idiotic comments anti-vaxers make, and then comment in a giant pile-on of amused outrage replete with R-rated adjectives and hilarious facepalm memes. (Which is, in my opinion, the proper use of memes, not these stupid ranting message memes Nicole posts). Many of the site’s readers are Australian and take the English language to places unfamiliar to the average American ear – it’s almost a contest to see who can create the biggest compound curse word.
    I won’t link it here because I’m typing with my T-Rex claws on an iPad and copy/pasting rarely goes well in this scenario. Just search Facebook for Things Anti-Vaxers Say. Be sure to read the comments.

  108. OMG!
    I thought just for the…hell… of it I’d look for a book on the history, or study of swearing… there are a “bucket load (new swear words) of swear coloring books!!! 😄😄😄

  109. I’ve been known to swear once or twice. 🙂 In fact, I’ve been known to make sailors blush. And I most definitely agree that people who swear often have larger vocabularies. It sometimes helps when swearing to be highly descriptive, instead of relying on stock phrases. Makes me think about what I’m saying when it’s personalized.

  110. This is so sad. My six year old, a first grader, is currently reading Cricket in Times Square. My 8 year old, a third grader? Well into the Harry Potter series.

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