JOE: I. . .no charges filed, no nothing. They spent eight weeks interrogating my kids. And, okay this is, go back. Thursday, they took the two olders Wednesday night, uh, uh, I dropped the other eight kids off Thursday morning and then we had to go to court Thursday afternoon, so I got Nicole out of jail, just before we went to court. And, uh, we show up and we’re sitting there, and so my lawyer’s like, well, what’s the situation, what’s, you know, what are our concerns, and so he just kind of, well, that’s not against the law, that’s not against the law, and what it broke down to was one of my Facebook pictures showed one of my kids walking on a dirt, on the dirt ground, and she’s like, well I’m just concerned that that’s your cabin floor. I said, well first of all, it’s not illegal in the state of Kentucky to have a dirt floor in your cabin. There are a lot of people in the Appalachian area that have dirt floors in their cabin.
And if that’s your issue, then my lawyer said well let’s put this off for 72 hours and have the Cabinet come down that Friday, that next morning, uh, and just inspect it. So, two workers and our lawyer met that Friday and she was like, oh, I see you’ve got an actual floor. She’s like, uh, and I told her we plan on building a bigger cabin, and I says, but she’s like, well, this cabin is fine, uh, I see how you opened it up with the warmer weather, um and she says, just before winter make sure you have the fourth wall up, yeah, that’s fine, we just took the fourth wall down to open it up into like a picnic area.
And she said everything was fine and as we were walking off, she can see where we had a little, uh, because the property we bought had a bunch of trailers on it that kind of were broken down, with furniture still in it, it was weird, but there was a lot to clean up, and we had a staging area where we had metal recycling and stuff. She’s like could you just fence in this area, that’ll just, no, not that there’s any laws but just for my concern and you know, for the children’s safety, and I says, that’s fine. Not a problem, I’ll just, I’ll fence in this area.
So, she’s like okay good. So we were planning on going back to court on Monday and everything was gonna be fine, they were gonna say everything’s fine and the kids are gonna be returned, but then, uh, my older son, from a previous engagement, um, showed up. (1) He just walks into this courtroom and gives the bizarrest testimony of sexual abuse and abuses. I hadn’t seen him. . .
HOST: Oh, no.
JOE: . . .since he was (unclear) old. Yes, I hadn’t seen this kid since he was 4 ½ years old and, the court documents from New Hampshire, because we were living in Texas at the time, we were expecting our third child, so we couldn’t, we had no money to go up and deal with the situation that was going on in New Hampshire.(2) So, but the situation in New Hampshire, there was no, no allegations of that at all. So he gives this bizarre testimony, the court figured, well, that good enough for us to reconvene in a week and we’ll, we’ll investigate those original charges, we’ll request those court documents, which they did and they saw that there was never any allegations of sexual abuse,(3) and they also interrogated, the sheriff and CPS decided they would sit down and talk to every single one of my children. So, over that week, they did just that.
So, Friday comes along and they say, okay, and we’re staying at a friend’s house, and so they say, well, we’re allowed to give you supervised visits, we’re gonna let you have your children back from Friday until Monday when we, [aside to kid] No. [child’s name], I don’t want him up there. [Back to camera] And, uh, Friday until Monday when we go back to court and you’re fine, your children are amazing. Uh, they’re very well-spoken, very well-mannered, very intelligent, they’re articulate, they couldn’t say enough words to describe how awesome we are.(4)
And um, so they kept saying everything (unclear) we’re 100% sure that the kids are going home.
So Monday shows up and there’s bickering going on between the Guardian Ad Litem and everybody and there’s arguing and finally the judge goes okay, okay, and she looks at the sheriff and she says, sheriff, on, on the record, this is his testimony on the record, sheriff, is there any reason why these children shouldn’t be returned home? And his testimony was, no, they’re not breaking any laws, I think the way they’re living is kinda neat, uh, and there’s no reason why the children shouldn’t be returned home,(5) and so she looks at the Cabinet, CPS, and says, asks them the same question. Is there any reason why these children shouldn’t go home, and they go on even further, like, no these kids are amazing, this family’s amazing, they described what they walked into, we didn’t even tell them we were coming, we walked in, the people that we were staying at had six kids and our ten kids and they were like, there was no fightin’ goin’ on, it was rainin’ out all day, they were cooped up inside but there was no fightin’ no arguing, they were getting along and they were just going on about how amazing we are, and how loving we are.
And so, but the Guardian Ad Litem starts sitting there saying, well, they could be brain-washed. And the Cabinet’s like, have you met these kids?
This is reaching at this point. Making stuff up. Brainwashed in what way? Oh, you mean, to not be totally in line with your statist paradigm?
They could be Russian spies, I mean you can’t be too sure.
JOE: That’s it. And I, and, and so the Cabinet goes, are you kidding me, they told us that Dad smokes pot. They said, Dad smokes pot, and he also, uh, uses, uh, his disciplinary method is pushups and running laps. Sometimes he pulls out a switch and we get a switch on the butt. Uh, we haven’t used that method in quite some time, uh, but, uh, you know, they even said, none, there’s no negative effects to the marijuana smoking, he has no criminal background, he has, there’s no violent background, there’s, there’s nothing illegal about spanking a kid on the butt in Kentucky.
And uh, so she just, they’re all arguing, and so the Guardian Ad Litem goes on even more with this whole, well, he could, you know, they’re Christians, and uh, they’re a large family, and, eh, you know, the father’s a patriarch kind of blowhard kind of a thing. (6) He’s just manipulating and controlling these people and uh, if you met my wife, you know, uh, we both wear pants in this family.
Yeah, he might be a blowhard, but not a patriarch.
JOE: [laughs] But, uh, so it just turned into, well, we’re gonna keep the kids and we’re gonna put them through, my kids, over those eight week period, met with psychologists, psychiatrists, uh, doctors, a plethora of different specialists, from bone scans to brain scans to heart scans, you name it, my, they were dropping money like it was candy just to have my kids interrogated. They met with educators, and every time they came back, there would be a lot of political jargon, like, oh, the children weren’t allowed to go to public school, or the children weren’t vaccinated and the children don’t go to see a doctor on a regular basis, you know, Dad stitched the oldest kid’s finger back on himself, and the finger’s in good shape, but, then at the bottom it would always say, the kids are healthy, they have no recommendation.
It was just so. . . you don’t need to add all that other stuff to say my kid’s healthy. Now let’s get on with the show.
Um, but, oh, no.
HOST: I still have you.
Yeah, I don’t know if you can hear us, but you’re still on
JOE: I have somebody calling in.
HOST: Oh, gotcha.
JOE: So, um, during the next seven weeks of them doing this to my children, and then after seven weeks, uh, the, there, because I did test positive for marijuana twice (7) and then they said if you test, you give us a negative test, we’ll lift supervision and we’ll be able to place them with you. So, I, I, I had, I had stopped smoking some time, and it took like sixty days to get out of my freaking system. . .
JOE: . . .but I finally cleaned the marijuana out of my system, uh, and uh, they were lifted supervision. After eight weeks, the children were placed back with us and uh, and whatnot, and we kept kind of going on, goin’ on, we still had these criminal charges, I was facing
HOST: You’re freezing up a little
[Technical problems and a little discussion about that]
JOE: . . . misdemeanor. . . we record every conversation we could, except for actually in the courthouse, I meant in the court room. In the family court room. The judge would not let us bring our cell phones in there. Uh, but we can order those transcripts, I’m not sure if she’s gonna, you know, seal some of it, because they were talking about that the last court date, of sealing some of it, but we recorded everything, every interaction, every phone call, everything. And uh, so the, my lawyer calls me up and says, listen, you know, you guys have a case, they violated your rights, these things can take years to resolve. He says, and you see how bizarre this has been from the beginning. He says, now, I’ll defend you if that’s what you want, but I’m gonna come home at the end of the day, I’m gonna eat my steak, and I’m gonna make love to my wife and I’m gonna go to bed. He says, they’re gonna find something. They’re gonna. Because at one point, the, the county attorney walks in and says, well, your honor, because they’re not being cooperative in their criminal charges, because we were like, no, we’re not, we’re not plea-dealing, we’re not, I was not guilty of menacing, and my wife was not guilty of, of, disorderly conduct or resisting arrest and that’s it. We’ll take it to trial. I, we don’t care.
And he knew he had no case. He knew that there was gonna be lawsuits, they knew that the county screwed up. And so, he comes into family court, and he says, your honor, because they’re not being cooperative in the other criminal cases, I want to add contempt charges in their family court case. And he actually put two of our kids on the witness list, making it to where we can’t even talk to them now.
And we’re like, so we couldn’t find out what was going on, what was gonna be said, or else we would have felony witness tampering charges as well. He made that clear too, that if we tried to contact them and whatever.
So, we’re now looking at contempt charges, which is six months jail time for each of us. And she was about to give birth, you know, coming up. So, uh, our lawyer made it clear that they were gonna find something. They were gonna hold us in contempt. He said he’d already know, this is, he was telling us that it had already been discussed, that district court was gonna find us in contempt, put us both in jail, take our kids away, get them immune, put them in public school, Nicole would have the baby in jail, they would take the baby, and yeah, we’ll get the kids back when we get out. . .
HOST: Under new terms
JOE: But look at all the damage, six months, just being separated from each other and separated from us and foster care is not a pleasant place.
HOST: Not at all.
JOE: My oldest kids were in a detention center up in Louisville, uh, and he’s, my kids were like, they’d just never seen anything that bizarre, people flipping out, throwing tables. .
HOST: Yeah. [Note: he sounds oddly enthusiastic about this]
JOE:. . . fighting each other
HOST: Oh, those environments aren’t sane.
JOE: . . .all sorts of. . . and, um, so he said, they’re gonna hold you in contempt and they’re gonna find something. Now the circuit court, which is also in the county, they’re gonna rubber stamp what district court did. That’s gonna cost you, you know, when you appeal, you go to circuit court first, that’s gonna cost you ten thousand and they’re gonna rubber stamp it. This is, he’s like, my lawyer’s like, this has already been discussed.
And so he says, in an appeals court, which is where it goes next, that’s gonna cost you another ten thousand dollars, and you’ll win but that could take up to three years. And I was like, holy crap. So he’s like,well, here, here’s, you know, the prosecutor wants to plead you. So I was like what does he want. And, uh, at first it was some bizarre things, so I was like, no. I want my wife’s charges dropped, or whatever, just, uh, uh, whatever they called it, deferred, or whatever, they just wanted her to admit that he had a reason to pull her over. So that way they can, we’ve already talked to lawyers, that still doesn’t negate from a lawsuit, uh, and then they want me to plead guilty on my Class B misdemeanor. I don’t have a criminal background. I’m forty-three years old and I have no criminal background. Ah, and um, so, they wanted to give me like sixty days jail time. I was like you got to be kidding me. And so, I ended up talking it down, (8) I ended up doing four days jail time and I did an Alford plea, which just means I maintain my innocence, um, but the county, they’re gonna screw me over anyway.
And then family court, we would both plead, uh, dependent [asking Nicole], yeah, dependency for living in a dilapidated home and because I smoked marijuana.
HOST: [incredulous] Dilapidated?(9)
You’re fucking me. That’s serious?
JOE: (unclear) . . . but dependency. Right. And, uh, which just means basically that I can’t work at a day care center or an old folks’ home or whatever. (10)
HOST: That’s truly insane.
JOE: So we said, okay, we’ll do it. And that was in November of 2015. So, and it was all supposed to go away. So they rush our criminal pleas through, uh, uh, I, uh, plead and I said I would do the four days jail time and Nicole said, yeah, he had probable cause to pull me over, and then as we’re getting ready to do the family thing, the Guardian Ad Litem starts throwing a fit. Just starts throwing a fit. Talking about she wants us to be forensically evaluated. Forensically evaluated. All of us. All of our children and us, so. . .
HOST: Now what exactly is that?(11)
JOE: . . . the judge goes ahead and orders it. In our deposition. Which is supposed to be . . . it. It’s like, in the (unclear) CPS worker, she’s like never heard of this. Usually, people have forensic evaluations to see if the children should be returned, not after, after the children have been returned, but after custody has been returned. So, CPS has been beside themselves this whole time, my lawyer’s been beside themselves the whole time, and, and it’s just amazing, so they did this forensic evaluation order them, it’s like a year later, they still hadn’t gotten any of us in. They kept going to court, saying, well, the lady had her father die, that runs the forensic evaluation and then other stuff going on, and uh, so finally they do me and Nicole, and now we’re talking over a year later.
So we go back into court and the results haven’t come back from them, but I convince the judge, and I speak up, and I convince the judge to sit there and say, (12) well, let’s just call off the kids being evaluated and if we find something in the parents, then we’ll have the kids evaluated.
So, that was fine, so we set up another court date and they get the results in and basically it’s thirty-nine pages of, uh, political opinion.(13) At the end of it, it says, these parents are not suffering from any mental illness, but because, and she goes further, she says, and I, and she even states in her evaluation that her test doesn’t measure anything she’s about to say. But that the forensic evaluation actually (unclear) to prove that we don’t suffer from any mental illness. But because, but because we’re so adamant and outspoken about our lifestyle, about our political opinions, about our, about our faith, that it puts us in a contentious environment to where people react contentious towards us and that puts our children in danger. (14)
And I was like, what?
HOST: This is like blaming a woman who may dress a little (unclear) for being raped.
JOE: And, uh, they want to argue that, um, uh, that they want to see progress with this, and I was like what are you guys talking about, so I, I speak up again, and I tell her that, listen, these tests show that we’re not mentally ill, we’re not suffering from any mental illness, that would put our children in danger, uh, you know as far as the test results are concerned, as far as how they evaluate it and according to law, and uh, the psychological, you know, the different things, schizophrenia, uh, whatever, uh, they have on that list, um, and uh, and so I tell them that listen, because if the Guardian Ad Litem, my lawyer start talking about, oh, are you going to, you know, get every Amish person in here, or are you gonna get every homeschool kid in here and start eval. . . are you actually going to change Kentucky law and say that you need to have every homeschool kid evaluated?
And so the lady’s like, no, because they’re not sitting here in my courtroom. The Nauglers are sitting here in my courtroom. So at this point I speak up and I say, just because we’re sitting here doesn’t mean we’ve lost our rights. We still have our rights. And I have yet to see a charge with us being charged with anything. Nonetheless convicted of anything.
JOE: And I tell the lady, the, the, the tests, judge, I tell the judge, that you know, these tests, these forensic evaluations show we’re not suffering from any mental illness, uh, and that the Cabinet who is the investigative arm for family court testified profusely every time we’ve walked in that we’re a very loving family, our kids are very intelligent, very well-mannered, very well-spoken. Eh, and that, uh, they’re very impressed with us. Every time. And um, but the Guardian Ad Litem is a, she’s um, she’s one of those people that got really upset when Trump won, uh, she’s a liberal Democrat and she’s very anti-religious and anti-large-family and anti-traditional. Uh, you know, we seem to be dealing with a lot of those people at this moment for the past 20 months, we have, uh, a, a fanatic liberal blog writer who is, has been writing blogs for quite some time about us, everything. (15) Uh, we post, um. . .
HOST: Do you mind telling us who that is?
Yeah, I’m curious. I’d like to look up on them.
JOE: I don’t know if it’s my phone or you guys, I’m having a hard time hearing you.
HOST: Well, do you mind telling us who that is. If you aren’t comfortable with that, then that’s fine, but it’d be interesting to read what she (16) has to say
JOE: (garbled due to transmission problems) . . . dropping names. . . .you mean?
JOE: Are you referring to the blog writer?
JOE: (phone issues) There’s a different volume on this.
HOST: Yeah, the uh, the uh blog writer.
[Silence, more phone issues.]
HOSTS: (talking over each other) We can’t hear you right now.
[laugh] Well you silenced yourself successfully.
[laugh] yeah, we can’t hear anything now.
You changed the microphone volume.
[More technical issues, garbled, Joe in and out.]
HOST: You should have heard the technical issues we had last week. (laughing) Yes, it was a lot worse than that.
JOE: Now you sound like you’re whispering, and I can’t figure out how to turn up my volume here.
Um, well the lady that writes the blog, her name is Sally Davis, and uh, the name of the blog is Blessed Little Blog, and she’s been writing it since, since when? (asking Nicole)
NICOLE: About a year, or a little over a year.
JOE: A little over a year. And uh, first of all, they have no facts about family court, (17)
because no facts have been released except for the ones that we’ve released. Like um, the cabinet based the CPS saying the only thing they found out of everything, they have access to all the results, all tests, everything, the only thing they found to substantiate, is that educational neglect. And they specified, not because our kids are retarded or anything, but just because we didn’t tell Breckinridge County School Board, that we were homeschoolers.
HOST: Oh, oh no!
JOE: (talking over Host) That’s all they found. We released that paper.
HOST: That is insane, I wish I could, (garbled)
[More phone technical difficulties, don’t really understand what Joe is saying, but he is asking someone in the cabin if they know how to do something with the phone.]
HOST: Well, got it figured out Joseph?
JOE: I got it.
HOST: All right
JOE: Say that again.
HOST: No, never mind. Um, let’s try, let’s try to wrap this up. (18)It sounds like things are getting a little bit more difficult for uh, us to communicate.
- Joe tells this story as though somehow, they were just sitting there in court, and out of the blue, Alex walked in from nowhere, and nobody knew he was coming and it was all sort of Perry Mason-ish. The surprise witness. He doesn’t mention the history behind all this or Nicole’s horrible actions about Alex.
- This is the most ridiculous excuse for child abandonment I have ever heard in my life. I don’t have 12 children. I only had one. But I would have crawled to New Hampshire if I’d had to before I would have allowed a court to rescind my parental rights. This man portrays himself as such a wonderful, loving father, but abandoned his first-born child.
- I call complete bullshit on this. In the first place, those were sealed, old records. He doesn’t say how long it supposedly took to get those records, but it wasn’t a few days. In the second place, I doubt seriously that they would have told Joe what was in those records. They are sealed. Joe didn’t go to court. Joe wasn’t a party and has no right whatever to the information in them. Bullshit.
- Does anyone else get tired of Joe blathering about how awesome he and Nicole and the kids are? When you’re really awesome, you don’t have to tell people about how awesome you are. One of the first things I noticed about Joe was his propensity to carry on about how “everyone who meets me loves me.” Only they don’t. I’ve met Joe and I certainly don’t love him. Eric met Joe and didn’t love him one single bit. His neighbors don’t love him. He keeps getting dragged into court because he cannot get along with anyone.
- First of all, why would the judge ask Sheriff Pate’s opinion on whether or not those kids should be returned? What in the world would Pate know and what would he have to do with it? It was not his decision to remove those children and it wasn’t his decision to return them. He’s a law enforcement officer, not a social worker. Second, even if she actually did that, which I doubt, Joe’s quote about how Pate thought their “lifestyle” was “kinda neat” comes from Nicole’s encounter with Pate, not from court. I grant that maybe he said it twice, but I doubt it. Joe has a tendency to conflate stuff. And third, if he did say what Joe says he said, and I am totally wrong, why have Joe and Nicole decided to go after Sheriff Pate with a vengeance and vilify him every time they possible can? Seems that when it came to court, according to Joe, Pate was an ally.
- The Guardian Ad Litem simply would not use the “they’re Christians” argument in a courtroom where every single person present is probably Christian. Seriously, this is Kentucky. Finding a non-Christian in Kentucky is a difficult task. The patriarch thing is much more plausible, as we’ve seen multiple cases of very nasty situations involving patriarchal men. Joe likes to pretend he’s one of those, but he isn’t.
- Thank you for confirming that, Joe. For the record: I am in favor of legalizing pot, but when your whole family lives in a shed not fit for my cattle and your children are sleeping on a plywood board with no mattress, admitting you were spending money on pot is enough to make my blood boil.
- Joe, for all his bluster, caves when confronted with real authority. Plea deals are always engineered so that the defendant gets to “talk it down.” It’s a bit like selling a house. The price is always more than the seller will actually take. Negotiation is expected and normal.
- Yes. Dilapidated.
- I find this interesting.
- Joe didn’t convince the judge of anything. Sigh.
- Read the definition above. Forensic evaluations are not “political opinion(s).”
- The translation of this is that Joe and Nicole are both assholes who create conflict everywhere they go and live in a perpetual environment of strife and controversy. This isn’t good for children. I concur with that.
- Oh, goody. They’re talking about me. But read this section carefully and notice something.
- How did the host know my gender?
- I have never claimed to have any facts about family court apart from what Joe and Nicole have revealed. Please show me where I ever did that. I do have copies of publicly available court documents for their other bazillion cases, and have published them here, but not family court. We don’t know about family court beyond their account because it’s not public, which means that Joe and Nicole get to tell their side of the story, but nobody gets to hear the other side. So take it with a very large grain of salt.
- First indication that the hosts are getting beyond bored with Joe’s pontificating. They have a whole lot more to listen to, however. Joe is just getting started good.