Citizens

One cold winter day in 2009, I happened upon a podcast and started listening to it out of sheer boredom. Tim Turner was describing how you could get out of paying your mortgage or having your house repossessed and end up owning it free and clear.

Since we already own our little farm outright and were in no danger of losing it, I don’t know why the whole thing intrigued me, but it did. I supposed it was because the guy was so obviously bananas.

This was back when lots of folks were in serious trouble with home foreclosures and job losses and people were pretty nervous about the economy. And this guy was doing a seminar on how to beat the system.

He threw around a lot of legal-sounding phrases and big words, like his listeners would understand what the hell he was talking about, and sounded astonishingly similar to Joe Naugler, as a matter of fact.  Lots of talking but not much communicating.

In one of his weekly calls, in another example, a follower asked Turner to explain what really happened when an alien spacecraft supposedly crashed in 1947 near Roswell, N.M. His reply was reminiscent of a tabloid headline in a supermarket checkout line: “I’m not going to tell you they [aliens] exist or don’t exist. What I’m going to say is every nation on Earth, or every industrialized nation on Earth at least, has a treaty with them.”

[From an article on Turner at the Southern Poverty Law Center.]

That was my introduction to the weird, wacky world of the sovereign citizen.

SPLC article
click image to link to source

This article is probably the best overall explanation of the movement and their basic beliefs. The most interesting part to me of all this is that the sovereign citizens movement is basically racist and originated mostly in the white supremacy community. And this PDF is a longer, more comprehensive history and explanation of the movement.

amazon

You can even buy books by sovereigns telling you all about how to flood the courts with worthless documents and how you too can end up in prison (like Tim Turner did).

The name thing is also bizarre and sort of fascinating. They believe that their name spelled in all capitals is not really their name at all and that they can get out of legal obligations just because they sign their name as Sally Davis, instead of SALLY DAVIS.

I laughed some more when these madmen sent letters to all fifty governors of the various states demanding that they step down from office “or else.” It was all just so funny.

But then along came Jerry Kane and his 16-year-old son, Joe.

Kanes

Here they are. An overweight pompous asshole of a father, and his innocent-looking, just-on-the-cusp-of-manhood son.  Jerry, in this video, was doing a seminar. You can listen to some of it if you like.  There is a whole series of these videos. The seminar was all day.

Jerry and his son were in Arkansas about a year after the video above was filmed and got pulled over by a couple of policeman on a routine traffic stop. While the policemen were occupied talking with the father, the son, this 16-year-old boy, produced a rifle and fatally shot both of the policemen. Jerry and Joe then fled, only to be surrounded a while later in a parking lot and killed by the police.

It was a terrible tragedy that didn’t have to happen.

It happened because Jerry Kane indoctrinated his son in a bunch of bullshit that included an over-inflated sense of their own importance, a complete disdain for the duly-authorized legal system from the courts on down to the local police, and extreme paranoia.

Jerry Kane, that jackass in the white suit, got both himself and his boy killed.

For me, the incident made the whole sovereign citizen thing not nearly so funny. I hadn’t realized how close they were to violence. Obviously, those cops hadn’t realized it either. After the Kane tragedy, police officers started receiving training in how to recognize sovereigns and how to handle them so that further incidents like that would not occur.

I bring all this up because Joe and Nicole Naugler, while describing themselves as voluntaryists, use language and seem to embrace concepts that originate in the movement. Pinning an ideology on the Nauglers is difficult if not impossible, as they are basically opportunists.

Nicole has said that she is a “voluntaryist.”  Before venturing down the Blessed Little Rabbit Hole, I had no idea what that was.

Think of it this way. The big category is “Christian.”  Under that, we have “Protestants” and “Catholics.”

The various sub-sects of “Protestant” include those on in the mainstream, like Episcopalians or Lutherans, and those on the right, like Southern Baptists, and then the really extreme bunch, like independent fundamentalist snake-handling Baptists.

And that’s very much the way libertarians are.  Like Baptists, there are all sorts of sub-groups. There are the basic mainstream libertarians, who are bonkers but pose no threat to anyone about anything. And there are all the spawns, the off-shoots, many of whom are lumped together as “patriots.”

Sovereign citizens and voluntaryists and anarcho-capitalists all fall into that latter category. Sorting out the differences between them is a bit like trying to figure out what the difference is between Southern Baptists and Free Will Baptists and Primitive Baptists. They fuss and fight over definitions between themselves, but nobody else cares. They are all Baptists.

And like Baptists, these sub-groups have core ideas they share, things like “government is bad,” “laws restrict freedom,” “taxation is theft,” “the police suck dirt,” “courts are all corrupt,” “government is all corrupt,” “to be free, nobody can tell me what to do.” That sort of thing.

anti

I have dozens of screen shots like this, where Nicole shares some post of Larken Rose’s.

I’ve talked a bit about Larken Rose here and in another post about voting. But what I didn’t mention is that Larken Rose is one of those voluntaryist-anarchocapitalist sorts. (If they combine any more words, we’ll have a hyphenated jungle.) And that’s a close, close sibling to a sovereign citizen.

Nicole loves Larken Rose.  She hangs on his every word and shares many of them. She even steals them outright without attribution.

business law

She doesn’t like laws pertaining to her business. She doesn’t like it that the state wants to insure that if I walk in there, the building will be safe and not collapse, the workers will be paid appropriately (unless they are her own children, in which case slave labor is acceptable), there is a recognizable entity for me to sue if I am cheated, and that she is not permitted to skip out on paying her fair share of taxes.

theft

Oh, yeah. I forgot. Taxes are theft in Nauglerville.

law you won't obey

Notice the threat here? You’re a slave. You need to figure out when you are going to rise up and revolt. At what point will you do that?  You need to think about it.

No, I’m not, Larken, and no, I don’t.

laws immoral

Thankfully, Nicole does not hold any elected office. There are good things in the world and having her washing dog butts is one of those good things.

government control

Apart from the fact that the little graphic above is inaccurate (being a socialist does not mean that you think government should control all  your food sources or clothing sources or even housing except for the needy, and the differences between a classic conservative and a classic liberal are way more numerous and varied than universal healthcare), the point Nicole is offering up here is that she doesn’t believe in government of any kind at all. Zip. Nada. Zilch.

dangerous lumped

So, see, even Nicole lumps the various sects of this so-called “Patriot” movement together.  And she knows that there is a violent, dangerous streak in there.  She knows perfectly well who Jerry Kane was, and I bet she could name many of the other sovereign citizens or similar types who have clashed with law enforcement and ended up either in prison or dead.

don't condone violence

Two options.  Just two. Black and white.  Either, or.

What about option C? Authority is given with the consent of the governed (it is – Nicole just won’t vote because her guy generally doesn’t win, so she took her rubber duck and left), so we honor that even if we don’t agree with it.

For her, there is no option C.

And she’s not condoning violence (yet), but she understands it. Yeah, we all heard her screeching at Sheriff Pate to shoot her, and screaming at her boys that the police would shoot them.  I remember that.

don't condone violence 2

And this is what her unschooled kids are being fed. Violent uprising might be the only answer.  The state has no authority.  The police are the enemy, and violence against them is “understandable.” Law about things like sanitation and business licenses are evil and have no validity.  It’s courageous and commendable to scream bloody murder at a sheriff.

daylight savings timeEven the family jokes involve how dumb and useless and stupid and incompetent the government is.

I think that is exactly what Jerry Kane fed his son, Joseph.  And I really believe that when Jerry Kane heard those shots and saw those police officers fall and realized that his son, who I’m sure he loved, had just killed two officers, he was the most shocked person on earth.

When I listen to Jerry Kane on those videos, I am reminded of men like Ted Haggard (the fundamentalist preacher who ranted about the evils of homosexuality while having a gay affair). They say stuff from the pulpit all the time that they really don’t believe or do. Jerry Kane wasn’t going to actually do enough law-breaking to get put in actual jail.  He was just going skate close so he could trot around the country and give seminars in his white suit and get paid for it.

We all do this to some extent.  “I will not do that,” we say vehemently, until we calm down a little and realize why we are going to have to do exactly that, or a somewhat altered version of that. It’s called adulting.

Joseph Kane was not an adult, though. He, like all adolescents, was just starting to learn about how idealism and reality sometimes (often?) clash, and how you have to figure out how some sort of compromise.

And he was listening to his father ‘preach’ from the pulpit of governmental hatred, childish narcissism, and paranoia.  He absorbed the lessons.  He believed them.

The result was catastrophe.

I’ve wondered what was running through Jerry Kane’s mind as he madly drove away from that scene.  He had to know that if the police found them (and he had to know that they would), he and Joseph would very likely be killed in the ensuing situation. He was a dead man driving, and in the vehicle with him was his son, also as good as dead.

Did he frantically try to figure out a way for his son to survive even if he didn’t?  Did he want to give up?  Did they argue about it?

We’ll never know.

 

 

 

 

 

62 thoughts on “Citizens”

  1. A much wiser man than me once said “It matters not what others say of your character. It matters only that you recognize the truth of your character”

    I’m not a psychologist.

    I’m a regular guy. I believe that the reason this whole debacle thrives is because, perhaps subconsciously, Joe and Nicole recognize their true character.

    They understand that they have failed — that their choices are so far on the other end of the bell curve, that they cannot ever truly recover. Their continued actions, drama seeking, deflection and justifications are a band-aid on a gaping chest wound.

    They see their philosophy and current position in life as not only acceptable, but as a failed individual will do, they try to draw a victory from losing.

    The constant criticisms of the system they have failed to understand and participate in, to their own as well as their children’s benefit, speaks volumes.

    It’s not a matter of sacrificing your core beliefs and values. Society allows that ad nauseum.

    It’s a matter of having the character and work ethic to know how.

    There are 11 kids that deserve a chance. A real chance. They deserve a chance to attain THEIR dreams and goals. They deserve more than to be inculcated into thinking abject failure is “success”.

    They should know there’s more to life than crowd funding and a PayPal button.

    How we lead our lives, whether it be in a garden shed or a penthouse is something we should all have a chance at.

    Joe, “chance” is also a statistical term. Statistics are mathematics. I’ve heard you refer to math as an exact science.

    You might want to look around and crunch some numbers.

  2. Black and white thinking are often attributed to borderline personality disorder. Nicole exhibits this black and white thinking in almost every aspect of her life. It takes her down the path to extremes and her children pay for it. Her black and white thinking of public schools are bad = homeschool only works = they could not manage homeschool so they unschool = no education for her kids at all. No compromise at all and she is unable to see what damage she is doing to her children by not providing a solid basic education for them. Now the taxpayers will be picking up the tab for 11 undereducated adults who will be unable to thrive in the workforce. Sadly, unless and until she is willing to seek mental health support life on the homestead will plunge ever deeper into poverty, violence, substance , emotional and physical abuse between the parents and the parents unto the children.

  3. One other thing, when Nicole posts videos of her kids can she not see how rough her children look? The vacant empty eyes of her children that look so hungry for love, positive attention, affection, kindness and possible good healthy food. Her children look very unwell.

  4. So I just read the post NCN wrote on her page in response to this blog post. I am thinking another major Nicole meltdown is on its way.

  5. A subject near and dear to my heart.
    Little background. Some of you may know that I grew up in a family that was involved in the Montana Militia. I grew up fearing the government, especially the rouge alphabet agencies. I have been to “secret” meetings, punctuated by anger and hatred. I have been witness to some unbelievably racist rants and behaviors, even going so far as to believe for a period of time that the holocaust was a huge fraud. I have seen what happens when you take that anger and paranoia and mix it with some Christian Fundamentalism. I have been in an armed standoff with federal agents, as a child.
    How did that all happen? Easy. This was back in the early 90’s. I was a child. The oldest of a large family, with poor, uneducated parents. Anger was a huge part of my life growing up. Anger is easily manipulated. Was it a just anger? Yes and no. Where we lived in Montana, it was all close knit communities, that were heavily supported by the timber industry. Everyone worked in the logging industry, or in services that supported the logging industry. For a while, we were not poor (or as poor). My mother was a waitress who would bring home a large amount of tips every night. My father worked in a lumberyard, for good wages. Then Clinton was elected president, and the environmental terrorists started targeting the logging operations. Trees were spiked, causing injury to fellers. Equipment was vandalized, costing money and man hours lost. That was food in families’ bellies. That was mortgage and truck payments. It was not a joke. The enviro-terrorists were a menace.
    Then NAFTA was passed. Within a few months, the mills were shuttered. The market was flooded with cheaper, subsidized Canadian timber. People lost jobs first, then the logging companies folded, losing more jobs. Other business started going under, not having the timber dollars flooding the local economy anymore. People lost homes. It was very very bad, and there was a lot of anger because of it.
    People have never had a problem blaming someone else for their misfortunes, and frankly, I do not believe that blaming the government for the collapse of the timber industry in the northwest to be at all misplaced. They had to know that that trade deal was disastrous, not just for us, but it caused a huge problem in Mexico. So when people started talking armed revolution to overthrow the Clinton administration, it made sense. We were patriots, just like the founding fathers, who took up arms against a tyrant who would destroy our livelihoods from thousands of miles away, without understanding the damage they caused.
    These were people with families, who had made good money without even a high school diploma in many cases. There were not many other options for them, or my parents, to replace that income.
    So the meetings started. We would no longer allow the government to control a single facet of our lives. People stopped paying income taxes first. Then not renewing driver’s licenses. Refusing to get insurance on vehicles was normal, because we were no longer bowing to an oppressive government who had no right to dictate or restrict the right of travelling (besides, we were too poor to pay the premiums anyway). Everyone started carrying guns everywhere, because fuck you government.
    This movement was not a sovereign citizens sort of thing. We loved our country. it was the greatest country in existence; well, would be when we got those damn commie democrats out of the government, and reinstated a constitutionally backed representative government that stayed the hell out of everyone’s business. A pure government based on the Constitution and the Bible. One that would not sell its citizens down the river for a trade agreement. Ruby ridge and Waco only hardened our resolve to overthrow the government, violently if necessary, and I do remember very bad things being said about Janet Reno. Soon, she became the object most of us focused hatred on, especially that affair with Elian Gonzales. Watching heavily armed federal agents rip a small child out of a closet to send him back to communist Cuba was seen as appeasing an evil dictator, and as un-American as it comes. The Feminist hating portion really started there, my father was warned that his girls could be easily misled by feminists to become someone like Janet Reno, not the sweet but strong, quiet women that they wanted.
    The standoff was slightly similar to the Bundy standoff, but with less people, and I still believe more cause. Cal Greenup, a leader, had been refusing to pay his taxes for some time, and for some reason, the feds decided the herd of elk on his property (that he admittedly fed) were an illegal game farm, and not the wild herd that just hung out for food. They came out to seize the animals. For no good reason other than to psychologically break an old man who would not bend in his convictions. On the day the elk were to be rounded up, we all showed up to block the feds (ATF and Forest Service) on this highway that served as a border to Cals land. We were armed. So were they. The local sheriff, Jay Printz (awesome man, look him up) refused to allow his deputies any involvement, because even he thought it was bullshit. Some yelling back and forth from us and the feds started to really turn nasty, and I really thought we were going to start shooting, because they were driving the elk up against the fence to round them up. The elk were terrified, and I will never forget the screams from those animals, and the sound of the fence wires breaking under the stress. I was angry and I was armed, and the people that were causing those animals so much suffering were right in front of me. There were animals with broken legs trying to get away from their tormenters. I do remember I chambered a round in the .270 I had, then it was taken from me. All the children were grabbed and placed in a van and driven away. No shots were ever fired; the elk ended up in the back of a big rig, where they all perished, and it was over.
    I never feared the agents for one moment. I was willing to shoot, and die, for this cause, and those poor animals. Probably why we were removed. We could never have won that battle.

    Were we wrong? No, even now, with the exception of the racism and the blatant breaking of the law (all minor things in the end) I do not believe we were completely wrong. I do look at things differently now, for a myriad of reasons, but I’m ok with hating Janet Reno for the rest of my life. I do believe the Government is very capable for being an aggressor, and I am ok with remaining vigilant to protect myself from it. I do believe the government is a little big for its britches, but I believe that the Founding fathers gave us a peaceful manner to resolve our differences with it, and I will exercise all those options before I ever bear arms against my government again. I have also learned that not all regulation is bad; in fact, most is good. I have gone from a potentially violent militia, to a strong constitutional libertarian, to republican tea party, finally ending at a democratic socialist. It’s been a hell of a ride.

    For the record, the Obama administration is to be commended for exercising the restraint it has in facing the even more violent and delusional antigovernment factions that it has faced. There has been no repeat of ruby ridge or Waco, and I find that amazing considering that the antigovernment wackos that are running around now are even worse than we ever where.

    Now, sovereign citizens, I cannot imagine those wackjobs and my wackjobs would ever have been copacetic. My wackjobs would have considered them anti American thieves, and advocated hanging them right next to the traitorous government. Anarchists would have been in the same boat. Communist hippies. Bums. Leeches. No use for them whatsoever.

    The Nauglers just like to take the path of laziness. They select a belief system based on what they believe it will do for them, not what they can do for the country. They do not take their citizenship seriously. They do not vote, they do not serve in juries. They scorn the Military. They give nothing back to a country that gave them everything .
    The men I have known, and still know, that have stayed in the Militia would have had no use for a Joe Naugler. Men are supposed to work and take care of their families. They are supposed to build actual houses. That is his responsibility. That is his failure.

    Bottom line, I do not give two shits what they believe, or do not believe. I care that they are neglecting their children, and indoctrinating them down a bad path. I do believe Alex’s story, and I wish that more money and support was available to those authorities to try to get to the bottom of the abuse and neglect a bit better. I am worried that the children will be angry at the world, and believe me, that is no way to live and thrive. I worry that the children will have no concept of responsibility, and that will cause many problems for them.

    Oh, and Fuck Larken Rose. Poor widdle wabbit foo foo. Don’t like taxes, don’t use the services taxes provide. That means get the fuck off the internet. Taxes pay for that. Go whine about how bad you have it somewhere else. Cal Greenup went to prison for his beliefs, and he took it like a man.

  6. All week I have been checking and waiting for the laugh parade to begin. This blog is a needed reminder of what is really going on in Nog-Town. Feeding your kids a steady diet of paranoia, hate and sarcasm along with isolation is a volatile cocktail.

    Your post brings back memories of Chevy and Cheyenne Kehoe and how scary it was when they were running loose in my neck of the woods. Great post, once again.

  7. Bethannie, thank you for sharing your fascinating story. You just blew holes in the Nauglers never ending rag that anyone who opposes them are white middle aged suburban statistics. You and yours are more militia than they will ever be. The Nauglers are just useless posers.

  8. It seems that maw is ticked off, probably because of the truth posted here. She (maw) dares people to come to her pages and post there. Explain to me, maw, how you expect posters to post comments and/or criticisms ( both, which I personally did) on your many pages when you ban said posters because you don’t like what they say?

  9. What can I add? Nothing much. Sally and Bethannie both say it so eloquently.

    Ignorance is the route to slavery. Education sets you free.

    Anger and hatred are counterproductive. The person it hurts the most is you. I know it sounds trite, but be part of the solution not the problem.

    Nothing is perfect, but democracy comes very close. It takes participation, work and vigilance. Change may not come right away, but it does come.

  10. Bethannie, thanks for taking the time to write that post. It certainly demonstrates the dangers that mindset presents. People, myself included, can learn quite a bit from someone like yourself who has experienced it full circle.

  11. I’m skipping down and around a bit.

    “Sovereign citizens and voluntaryists and anarcho-capitalists all fall into that latter category. Sorting out the differences between them is a bit like trying to figure out what the difference is between Southern Baptists and Free Will Baptists and Primitive Baptists. They fuss and fight over definitions between themselves, but nobody else cares. They are all Baptists.”

    They’re cousins. They will also fuss, fight and feud amongst themselves. Ditto for Abrahamaic religions. Jewish, Christian and Muslim. There will always be arguing, I just wish they would stop shooting one another. Also, they’re not the oldest continuously practiced religion in the world. We have to look to Australia for that.

  12. Tekla,

    I know so little of the aboriginal/original peoples of Australia. I’ve read a bit about the early migration theories, touched a little on the dream time. Can you please aim me somewhere to study more?

  13. Sovereign citizens and voluntaryists and anarcho-capitalists fall into the category of FREELOADERS! Folks that can’t make it in the real world and use that bullshit as a Excuse to explain WHY they live the way they do instead of the real truth. To stupid to cut it in the real world. They don’t want to pay taxes yet they are the first ones to Use and abuse or roads for starters along with EVERYTHING ELSE US REAL WORLD FOLKS PAY FOR WITH OUR TAX DOLLAR. Take take take yet not willing to give. Really if they want to live like that then Give them some land out in the middle of nowhere and SHOOT them if they drive off that land and use our roads. I bet their bullshit attitude would change FAST if that was to happen.

  14. Lalaloopsey I agree. I never even COMMENTED on the Blessed Little Shitshack page, merely liked a few comments here and there on “troll” pages etc and I was banned. How am I supposed to answer the Blessed Little Hag’s call for us “haters” to say it to her face?

  15. Ah, voluntaryists. Yes, association should be voluntary, but so should isolation. When children are deprived of meaningful participation in society, they are having their choices revoked, which makes isolation not voluntary for them. Fuck the kids as long as NicJo get their way. Typical for them.

    People who think following laws makes us slaves hate their kids. Period. I love my kid and want to be there for her. I follow laws to make sure I can be there for her because I love her, even if I don’t want to follow all laws or pay taxes toward wars. It takes a hateful person to put foolish ideology ahead of one’s children.

    The problem with “no victim, no crime” is that someone could attempt to blow up a building, have the bomb not go off, then claim that the attempt to kill people isn’t a crime since no one was hurt, therefore no victims, no crime.

    I expect an N-kid will be killed within five years due to their pathetic excuses of parents.

  16. Bethannie, wow. WOW. Would you consider writing a book about that? And detail your evolution and what it was like realizing the fallacies you were raised to believe? And how it affects you now?

  17. Wow! I don’t think I can add any additional comments. Very well spoken, Al!

    Thank you, Bethannie for sharing your story. Quite enlightening! And so relevant to this blog post.

    Excellent post, Sally. So thought provoking. Yes, ignorance will make you a slave to the master who molds your mind and beliefs. A slave to possibly dire and tragic consequences.

  18. I live in AR and very well remember the Kane’s shoot-out with the police. AR has quite a few hate groups including the KKK and a quite thriving neo nazi group. Not far from where I live, there’s a compound that houses a large group of the “sovereign citizens” that the Ns so proudly boast of sharing those ideologies of anti government. The ones around here had ties to the McVey and Nichols or should I say they had ties to this group. While they love to spout their anti government ideas, they are racist, homophobic, misogynistic evil people. Although, I will say that the group up here are much more ambitious than the Ns: They have modern plumbing, home school their children, and have constructed houses on their compound. I will tell you that while the men and women who live in that huge compound are antigovernment, they are not anti family and they work hard toward educating and caring for their children. I know this first hand because a few years ago, while I was foraging for mushrooms, I got a little too close to their compound. My husband was blind, and I had led him to a rock wall to sit while I searched for our favorite wild mushrooms. Seemingly, out of nowhere, a group of gun caring men approached first my husband and then me. I explained he was blind and what we were doing and they explained that I was getting very close to their posted property line and they didn’t like that one bit. I suspect, because we are old and white, my husband much whiter than I, they were much more respectful and nice than if we were younger or people of color. During our conversation about mushrooms, I told them I taught at the university, and they asked me if I would like to earn some extra money. I have to admit that these men scared the shit out of me, but I was also very curious. They homeschool the children of the compound but the children are tested by the public school system as a part of our education system. They wanted me to consult with their wives who were teaching the children and help them create a curriculum that would work for AR school systems without having to follow one of the on-line programs–they are very suspicious of the internet. They paid me good money, I created their program, and I became the liaison between their compound and the local school system. I even proctored the the children during the required tests meant to show that they were progressing. I was very curious about the way they lived. From everything that I saw, all the men worked outside and inside the compound. Some of the women worked outside of the compound as well and they all had regular houses, plumbing, gardens, and toys in their yards for the kids. They did have a little community building where they also had the kids meet a few times a week so that they could all work on some worthwhile Biblical project. But, I always knew that they hated people of color, homosexuals, women who were feminists, non-christians, and the government. They all carry weapons and even the women strap on fire arms. They talk hate in front of their children and I have no doubts that if confronted by the police, one or more of these children would be frightened enough to shoot. Because of the lack of discipline and lack of work ethic of the Ns, I don’t see them as being heavily dedicated to any part of any ideology. I really doubt they read or listen to too much of any teaching but they do spout key words and memes from hate sites as a way to justify their lack of gumption to provide for their children and they use antigovernment rhetoric to rationalize their lack of home schooling, plumbing, etc. While they are indoctrinating their children, I don’t think the older Naugler children are as indoctrinated into hate as the younger children will be, and I do hope the older ones are able to get away from their parent’s crazy ideas. I really am more concerned for those younger children who have not had the same socialization opportunities as the older children because they are more likely to respond in much the same way as the Kane kid did. I really wonder if the father, during their get away and eventual shoot out, had any moment when he regretted indoctrinating his son in that hate and fear of the police. I also think that a lot of these groups are uneducated folks who are either uneducated by choice or by lack of ability and the Ns, like the Kanes and others are so proud of their rebellion… It’s a very sad thing for the children.

  19. Another winnner Sally, TY. Bethannie, TY also for sharing your amazing journey!
    From Sally’s post and Bethannie’s bio, it becomes more and more apparent how hatred, paranoia, ignorance and isolation will damage young minds to the point of killing or martyrdom. Bethannie, how quickly your life would have been totally changed, had your weapon not been taken that fateful day. It was your lucky moment for that event.

    I recall Joe asking his son to get his shotgun in the video with the confrontation with the sheriff, then of course the water theft from the neighbor involving his sons and weapons and Nicoles’ multiple rants about arming themselves against her imaginary foes, complete with many pictures/videos of the children armed or shooting.

    Joe and Nicole are cowards but it is all to obvious who they are arming with lethal force while isolating and incessantly filling with thoughts of paranoia and hatred. Once the Naugler children mature to see beyond the ‘stead, unprepared and uneducated for the world they will face, it is a hard and sobering thought to have borne witness to the development and eventual outcome of these children.

    I hold out hope that because of “going viral” and all of the notoriety it has brought, perhaps it will not end as badly for these children as other hate filled radicalized youths.

  20. FB Refugee
    “I recall Joe asking his son to get his shotgun in the video with the confrontation with the sheriff,”

    You might be getting incidents messed up.

    Joe dis not ask his son to get a shotgun in the video with the Sheriff. Joe did not have any of the kids with him. Nicole had them with her. Actually Joe was a wuss when he spoke with the Sheriff when he arrived to the scene where they stopped Nicole and took her into custody. He had a woman friend of theirs speaking for him. Nicole had the confrontation with the Sheriff. The only mention of any thing associated with a gun in her confrontation was her screaming “Shoot me!”

    Joe asked the kid to get him a “gun” (was not specified what kind of gun) in the water incident. There was no sheriff there when that happened.

    Just wanted to set the record straight so not to get rumors started. If you can share that video I will listen to it again to see if what I heard was totally the opposite of what you heard.

  21. Wasn’t there a video filmed from inside the shack when one of the kids was asked to get the gun? Seems I recall that.

  22. OT Farm Girl
    The incident I was trying to refer to was when the Sheriff came to the shack to check on the daughter found down the road. When the sheriff asked if there were any weapons on the property, Joe told his son to get his gun. The son showed some confusion and hesitation retrieving the weapon, and imo, I don’t think he exactly trusted where his father was going with this order to him. It was very very tense and the deputy also stepped back then, if I recall correctly. Sorry if my statement earlier was unclear.
    But to me it showed the mindset of the son and how he was conflicted at that moment, and did not fully trust his fathers intentions. I don’t know if this vid is still available, but it is one of the most telling and freightening, imo.

  23. Old time farm girl,

    FB Refugee is correct. There was a video where Joe was talking with two officer’s outside the cabin and Nicole was filming inside from the first shed they had.
    All the children were inside setting on a bed and running about the cabin. The rifle’s are visible above the bed hanging on the wall.
    The officers even asked Joe if he had any weapons in the house or on the property when they were standing in the yard.
    Joe later comes in the shed after he refuses to cooperate. And Nicole and Joe are inside the doorway yelling and screaming at the officers that they are going to call the Kentucky State Police for these two Breckenridge Officer’s trespassing on there land without a warrant.
    And yes, Joe yells out for the kids to get his rifle.

    After getting tons of heat over this video and the fact that Joe had NOT been in court yet over the Menacing Charge Nicole quickly removed it. It actually PROVED there was much TRUTH in “Water Ladies Statements” as to Joe asking for one of his children to get the gun out of the glove box.

    This confrontation was over C.P.S wanting to check on the children about 8 months BEFORE the children were removed in May, 2015. The video FB Refugee is talking about even predates the OLV’TAPE ( Where the Sheriff just wanted to talk to the child after being found over a mile from home and driven back home by a stranger who picked her up.)
    Even Nicole admits C.P.S had been to the Homestead MANY times before the children were removed in May, 2015.

    Does no one else remember this video?

  24. When I look at the spectrum of anti-government sovereign-citizen-ishness, I can’t help thinking about ravens and crows.

    Where I live, adolescent ravens and adolescent crows leave the next at about the same time. You can hear them all over town. The ravens have a loud, piercing squawk that they deploy once or twice per incident. They fly around separately from their parents, investigating things and figuring stuff out for themselves, only calling for help when they hit the limit of their knowledge. The crows, on the other hand, have a nonstop annoying whine–ehhh, ehhhh, ehhhh. They shadow their parents, complaining constantly about having to do anything. They don’t want to find their own food. They don’t want to find their own perches. It’s just not fair. But if anybody tries to tell them where to go or what to do, the feathers fly!

    As misguided as they might be, some groups are just trying to make it as far as they can on their own, like ravens. But the Nauglers and their ilk…they’re just crows.

    Adolescent crows, though: eventually they quit whining and grow up.

  25. The only people left to support the Nauglers are a few hundred crazy people. One of them thinks it would be a good idea to give guns to homeless vets and let them live on her property for protection. Apparently, she is unaware that the majority of homeless vets might have more problems than just being homeless.

    Others supporters are all starry eyed to see children playing. Um, just drive by a public school at recess or a park in the afternoon. You can see lots of kids playing. Such strange ideas.

    And NOBODY cares if Nicole’s kids get dirty when playing outside. It’s the lack of medical care for burns, peeing and pooing where they play and the children’s forced isolation that people might just find disturbing.

  26. Sovereigns, voluntaryists, anarchists, or immature toddler minds in adult bodies just cannot seem to understand that their actions almost ensure that they will confront the law. Jerry Kane decided to run around without a license. He was stopped, because the police were stopping most people with out of state plates because of drug trafficking, and found to be breaking the law by driving without a license. His son escalated the situation into something tragic.

    Joe Naugler got cited for driving without insurance. Whoops, turned out there was a warrant for arrest for failing to pay child support and he spent some time in jail. Joe Naugler got pulled over because, surprise surprise, he was breaking the law by having at least one of his young children without a seat belt in an overloaded van. What were the kids doing in that van that a police officer could detect that they were unrestrained?! Probably acting really unrestrained. A lovely video tape of this loser and equal wife verbally harassing the police officer was the result. At least these faith-driven people contained their f-bombs to inside the car where their kids were. When the police officer was away. Joe would not restrain his livestock. Joe insisted on turning his acreage into a large sewer (and made his family live in it). Joe, when the sheriff brought his daughter back home from wandering, decided to get all confrontational.

    Nicole resisted arrest. Nicole screamed for the officers to shoot her. Nicole screamed for the thin air (and her cell phone recording) to call the state police to save her. Nicole’s, “watch my belly!” as she resisted arrest, ever dubious word is the only one that ever indicated that she was slammed onto a police car.

    Losers

  27. Does no one else remember this video?

    I saw it. Your description is accurate as far as I remember.

  28. Okay I stand corrected. Sorry I thought you meant the video when he arrived on the scene when Nicole was arrested with the two boys after leaving the shit shack.

    Yes I remember LE asking him if he had any weapons in the O[child’s name] video and he said only a 22. The boy was probably confused as he did not know which gun to get as there was more than just a 22. They also lied to the officers and told them they were camping there. They also denied living in the previous house when they were asked if they lived there something to do with a previous CPS call and people named Naugler. Lots of lies were told that day.

  29. One bone of contention about Nicole’s comments today. She says O went for a walk. Nope, she was pissed and wanted to get away. She didn’t just go for a leisurely stroll, she left because she was upset. If my young child was that upset I wouldn’t let them run off and figure they’d eventually come back. I’d sit and talk with them. I’d let them go up to their room and stew a bit but I sure as hell wouldn’t let them run off and not go after them. I love how she is reinventing her stories.

  30. I divorced the sperm donor when my son was just an infant and my daughter a toddler. I raised them, sent them to college, and even had the little starlings return to the nest a few times before learning to stand on their own two feet. Well, my daughter lives on our little farm because we just don’t want to mess with it, but she takes care of the house, the land, and the animals they raise for food and she gives a huge share of produce from her garden, eggs from their hens, and apples and peaches from our fruit trees that they now tend. I even had custody of my grandson from the time he was about 6 months until he was two and my daughter got her “shit together.” I am not bragging but simply making a statement: In all that time of raising children, there was never one time that the department of children’s services came to my house, or called me, or investigated me. Neither of my children ever ran away and when my son was in his early teens, he cut his foot bad enough for stitches and less than a month later, he hooked a large fish hook through his thumb….both times, I took him to the ER and he saw the same doctor and they didn’t call child services because they know that sometimes kids get hurt. Eventually, my son would break his arm playing ball, bust his knee riding a four wheeler, and break his collar bone propelling down a cliff (I didn’t know he was doing the propelling or the four wheeler thing until his friends brought him home and I took him to the ER). You would think, with all his accidents, the ER folks would have called and reported me for being the mother of an accident prone son. LOL….So, I am not buying N’s thing about being reported by over reactive busy bodies or by vengeful people. The lost child in the library is the most farfetched that I’ve read….a child wonders off in the library and is gone for 3-5 minutes and the librarian calls CPS…really????

  31. I happen to have the fortune of being related to some Voluntaryists. They are family and I love them but their ideas are completely messed up. I say ‘fortune’ because otherwise I would not have the behind-the-scenes view of it all that I have. I was raised by a white supremacist (one parent was and the other wasn’t–the one who was had us for visitation and the other did damage control when we went back home from our ‘visits’. The damage control was effective with me but not so much for 3 of my siblings) and like Bethanie, attended ‘secret’ meetings. My young mind was filled with fear as a youngster. But I was always a very caring and sensitive child. I saw what drove those people. It was fear and greed. — really just a juvenile desire to look out for number 1 without any regard for anyone else. In fact, an active disdain for anyone else. I had the fear but not the disdain or greed. I guess that’s why I turned out completely differently from every single one of my siblings.
    It’s funny, it’s all about “freedom” but really they are totally shackled by this stringent and suffocating ideology. Always looking over their shoulders, paranoid, covetous. It is so freeing to not be part of that. I am really grateful for my sane parent and whatever stroke of fortune that allowed me to let all of that go when I became an independent adult.

  32. I’ve been a homeschooling mother for 20+ years. My children have had numerous ER visits over the years. They’ve needed stitches, they’ve broken bones, they’ve bonked their heads, they’ve had seizures, etc. I have a busy house full of children and sometimes children get hurt. Never once have I had CPS in my home, never once have I worried about CPS coming into my home. I have friends similar to me and none of them have ever dealt with CPS. Her story makes absolutely no sense because she’s leaving a lot out.

  33. @Jeannie. There has to be more to the story. Most public libraries have very specific rules that young children (one where I worked was under 7) cannot be left at the library alone and will report such children to the police as abandoned. However, most librarians I know will check around the library for the family (as small town and branch libraries simply aren’t very large) before such a report.

  34. If reporting a family to CPS is a bully tool to her, then why did she report so many times on the aunt and uncle who adopted Joe’s son after Joe’s parental rights were terminated? She admits she had not seen the child or his parents in years (9 or so I think). She admits to being alienated from Joe’s family. Yet she posts “hearsay” accusing the parents and the child of unspeakable acts. Conveniently timed with the state going after Joe for back owed child support.

    How did that bully tool work out for her? According to her the state didn’t listen to her, they didn’t do what she wanted. Per usual just because she does some horrible thing she just assumes everyone else is as low down as she is. Joe went to jail for not paying that back child support. Per usual, he got a sweetheart deal. Bet he’ll be paying that for years to come even though the child is now an adult.

  35. She talks about people “doing something to help” rather than calling CPS.

    People *have* helped to the tune of $45000.00 plus who knows how much else in paypal. Some people don’t have time to go and sort out the lives of 2 adults and 12 kids. That’s why we have programs like CPS.
    I’ve had to call CPS on a neighbour before. Wasn’t fun and wasn’t easy. But that was my way of doing something to help the kids while keeping myself safe. That’s why we have CPS.
    I’ve also helped my elderly neighbour carry heavy boxes and stuff. I’ve gven extra baking away. I given another neighbour a jump. Started a neighbourhood book exchange. Point being, we all have a certain amount of time and resources to offer our neighbours. When the problems and risks are too great, professional help is required. Which is why we have CPS.

    I have never once heard her mention that they are helping a neighbour or community member except one post years and years ago when they lived in a house and socialised a bit and the kids were going to help a neighbour rotate their tires. That’s it. That’s the only time I have noticed any sort of community engagement in the form of them offering their help to someone else.

    I was watching a documentary about a cult and one of the ex-members who was born and raised into it but has fled as an adult talked about something I found quite striking. She mentioned that growing up, she had never had the opportunity to make a friend. Everyone in the cult was ‘family’. She never had the opportunity to try out friendships of her own accord with people that had different values etc. and learn how to navigate that. She never experienced having a falling out, or having a relationship on her own terms. Never knew the feeling of just getting to know someone and the joy of discovering you both like eachother’s company. As a result, it has taken her decades to feel comfortable with people that have different beliefs, values, and ideologies. She spent years learning how to not go immediately to a fear response to differing opinions, styles, and forms of communication. Her intimate relationships have all been extremely difficult and she has not been able to maintain any long term so far. I find that very sad. How could anyone think it’s ok to deprive their children of any opportunity to make a friend 🙁

  36. @ Terrie: I agree. She posted the numerous times she was approached by CPS and the one when the librarian called CPS over her son disappearing for like 3-5 minutes was the most far fetched in terms of every body is always picking and bulling us because we are not bowing down to big government…blah, blah,blah. It’s the same with all the other stories on her blog about children being removed from their “loving” and “caring” parents. They all tell watered down stories and even watered down, they are clearly unfit parents and, like N, blame the neglect on everyone but themselves…it was the sitter, it was the mother in law, it was……
    @sendsnacks: I suspect that N and J spend a large part of their lives bulling those people who do not support them or who disagree with them. They have been shown to bully on Facebook, and like you said, they called CPS on the family members who had custody of Joe’s son but only when they were being hounded for child support. They are like amoebas….they react to their environment without thought, they eat, shit, sleep, and breed…they don’t stock up for a rainy day nor do they give a shit about shit (both literal and metaphorical). They are simplistic minds in human bodies and they cannot for the life of themselves grasp what they have done wrong….Poor lost souls, said with a big dose of snark.

  37. I think the part of the story that got me was that O running away was EVERYONE’s fault but hers. It was Olivia’s for walking too far away, and the lady who picked her up was double wrong for both picking her up and driving her home, and then calling the police.

    My seven year old snuck out one day while I was bathing his baby sister. He had asked to go to a friend’s house, and I said no, and he waited until my back was turned and I guess he took off. I bathed the kiddo, then asked him to bring me a diaper and he wasn’t there, and I was running around the neighborhood with my naked wet baby in hand.

    I did a quick sweep, then called the cops, and when they pulled up lights and sirens, a lady down the street came out to see what was going on. My son SWORE to her that it was okay with me if he came in and played with her kid. And it would have been had she not just moved in and I hadn’t met her.

    The point is, I would never ever ever have blamed her for letting the kid in. She admitted being concerned because she hadn’t met me, but she didn’t want to leave my kid standing out there by himself. And I certainly didn’t blame the police, who was very kind to my son and explained that he couldn’t wander off without a grownup knowing where he was for his safety. In fact I was like, no. You tell him that if he runs off on his mama AGAIN he’s going straight to juvie. That was when a neighbor brought out a sweatshirt for my wet, naked baby.

    CPS never came about the naked baby. The cops and dispatchers were kind. I baked the other mom some cookies and we’re friends now. The idea that I would blame anyone other than myself for that debacle is insane.

    Yes, it was wrong for older kid to take off. He knows what he did. But kids DO dumb stuff like that. That’s why they need us to watch out for them. The fault, at the end of the day, lies with me for not listening out for him better.

    At no point during any of these CPS visits or interactions with the cops or the courts have Nicole or Joe stepped back and said, “hey, wait– life is getting pretty stressful and confrontational here– could we maybe do anything differently to give ourselves and our kids some peace?”

    There’s no such thing as a person who is ALWAYS the victim. Life doesn’t work that way. And if you genuinely believe that you have been in contact with CPS 8 times and the police even more than that, and NONE of those things were your fault? Well, Occam’s Razor is gonna beg to differ.

  38. MANY MANY MANY people offered to come build, clean , disaster clothes but they quickly released the blh just wanted money…all they did was get a hotel and buy some fireworks. I’m glad cps is still on this. anyone who thinks these kids are fine , is nuts.

  39. Come to think of it, I actually interviewed for a job with somebody under this big weird umbrella. It was an expensive taxi ride away, but I was desperate for a job at that time. I remember coming away from the interview wondering if I had just failed to ask the right questions or if the interviewer had failed to make things clear: in any case, I had no idea what the business actually did, except that it was something about helping people with their taxes.

    I didn’t get the job and the guy was in the news about a year later. Turns out that his schtick was charging people for a kit of form letters and such that supposedly let them opt out of paying income tax forever because the existence of gold fringe on the flag in the courtroom proved something or other about the validity of tax law. Naturally he didn’t pay any income tax himself. Or payroll tax, IIRC. Poor employees.

  40. I noticed Nicole posted a video where her five year old pushed the two year old down because the other child was in his way. The little one got up and showed his mom that he had hurt his hand when he fell. She never corrected the five year old about pushing his little brother to the ground. There is another video where the two year old takes a book away from the baby and then teases him with it. The baby looks sad. He doesn’t cry like most babies would in that situation. Sadly, he is probably used to being treated like that.
    In our family, both those incidents would be worthy of stopping and correcting the behavior. If our children don’t learn gentleness and compassion from us, we have failed as parents, in my opinion.

    But I gather from those videos and the recordings of Joe talking to the kids, that in their family, the bigger people just take what they want from anyone weaker. Very sad. Does Nicole not see how this looks to other people? Or does she know it reeks of poor parenting and she wants to post it to try to rile the “trolls” into “attacking” her?

  41. They are flat Earth believers! Ha ha ha ha ha ha! I want to know how they explain solar/ lunar eclipse to the kids!

  42. I just watched the video of the Kanes cold blooded murder of the two police officers. It’s horrible. Nicole is big on posting videos of the police, but she avoids letting her followers see the violent truth behind her fellow Sovereign Citizens. While she arms her kids and screams, ‘why don’t you just shoot me,’ when stopped by the police, she never takes up arms. She is filming. Never one to put down the camera, while she constantly escalates situations with the law with her children ever present, ever learning from her examples. But she won’t be the one doing the shooting of a weapon, she’s conviently abdicated that role to her children. Same thing Jerry Kane did with his son.
    As I watched those murders, I could only see how young those officers were, and that they were simply doing their jobs. They could have been my children and they surely left behind families forever changed. This is reason enough for me to follow the Nauglers. The similarities are striking.

  43. Ummm
    I just read this on Kos and it’s from the lips of the governor of Kentucky speaking at FRC ( who we know are dodos)

    “He encouraged the audience to fight in every possibly [sic] way so that they aren’t forced “to do it physically.” However, he argues that it may come to the shedding of blood.

    “I will tell you this: I do think it would be possible, but at what price?” he said, after being asked if he thought America would survive Clinton. “At what price? The roots of the tree of liberty are watered by what? The blood, of who? The tyrants to be sure, but who else? The patriots.”

    He continued wondering whose blood will be shed in this possible physical confrontation. “It may be that of those in this room. It might be that of our children and grandchildren. I have nine children. It breaks my heart to think that it might be their blood that is needed…”

    What kind of man is this? No wonder the counties are so screwed up. I hope he is up for re election and gets booted out.

  44. He was elected because people didn’t vote. We voted, but there was an abysmal turnout, and when people don’t go to the polls, the loonies win. When anyone starts with the whole “roots watered by blood” thing, I get hives.

  45. Sally, I totally agree. I mean Jerry Brown’s first term he was called Governer Moonbeam but he got things done. Now some 30 years later he’s proved to be a very progressive Democrat and good for the state.
    Schwartzenegger won because he was a so/so actor and he was married to a Kennedy. Pete Wilson who he replaced pissed too many people off.
    I won’t even go into Ronnie. When I met him in 1971 he was already a loony toon. He f*&^Ked up the education system here in CA so badly that it still hasn’t recovered. Bah.
    You Ky people have my sympathy.

  46. Nicoles latest blog post about her version of “off grid” living makes you say, “wait,what?”…Lets start with “we haul water”, from where honey? Someplace that is reliant on the grid? Or your Generator? How many hours a day do you run it on gasoline? Where do you get your gasoline from? Oh. An on grid gas station? And my personal favorite, she goes to the Laundromat.I’m going out on a limb here in assuming it is also ON GRID. Face it, without the grid, you and your family could not survive. You do not represent the off grid lifestyle.

  47. ANOTHER blog post! This one about Karen Brightbill.
    She just doesn’t get it. Her numbers are dwindling and she sounds crazier then ever

  48. Bea, i thought the exact same thing about the book video. The elder child is clearly taunting the baby and Nicole said nothing about it.

    I also noticed in the “under the tree” videos how detached from Nicole the kids seem. It is like they are in awe of the camera, not their mother.

  49. Okay, I fucking need to stop watching the train wreck. I admit, I am as attracted to the grotesque as much as the next person but the Ns are a little more than the grotesque. Reading her blog of insanity that is choke full of fallacies, likes, and ignorance isn’t quite the entertainment as going to the circus to see the bearded lady or the smallest person in the world. If it were just J and N, it could be entertaining in much the same way as waiting for the next installment of Kim Kardashians enlarging buttocks or her every filling lips; however, Kim K. is quite the savvy business woman and has learned how to shock in a way that pays off; however, J and N only know how to shock and then they are all upset that reasonable folks are shocked. Her explanations of moving her children into their shit shack instead of keeping a garden shack before they got the new garden shed is about as sad as her walking around their house in labor with just a sports bra on (an image that I found funny but sad at the same time) and letting one of her children cut the cord….WTF is wrong with those two. I was in the labor and delivery room when all of my grandchildren were born and I will never forget how pale my son in law became and how grossed out he was….he watched baby number one enter the world up to the point of the head coming out and he passed out….he didn’t watch any of the other children…..I cannot imagine how those children must have felt….especially the teens and very young. Can imagine? BTW, Nicole, when you read this don’t assume I am out of touch…I am far from out of touch but I do know there is a time and place for showing your ass…..Somethings are better left off line and out of direct views of your children and stretched out See you next tuesday is one of them.

  50. In her CPS as Bully Tool blog post, she conveniently forgot about another CPS encounter that was described on blog she had while she lived in Maine. Allegedly, an acquaintance who visited her home called CPS to report unsanitary living conditions, but CPS found the claim unsubstantiated. Nicole suggested on the Maine blog post that, instead of calling CPS, the acquaintance should have cleaned Nicole’s house for her. Meeting CPS standards for living conditions is no accomplishment to boast about since they are abysmally low in many states.

    Does anyone recall a blog post about a CPS encounter in Texas?

    In a facebook post, she states that their guardian ad litem was indicted by grand jury for tipping off a drug dealer about a raid. Nothing at all about a conviction. As the queen of if-there-was-no-conviction-we-are-innocent (or in case of Alford plea, she considers Joe innocent in spite of fact he was convicted), she is surely quick to hang out others to dry. Grand juries hear only the state’s side of the story. All too often, they serve as a rubber stamp for DA. But it sounds much more lurid to leave the reader hanging. None of her readers asked the obvious question: Was the GAL tried and convicted? Come to think of it, her leg-humpers remind me of grand jurors because they unquestioningly accept as legitimate whatever she says,

  51. Nicole overlooks that if there is only the free market for all the services, she and her family are going to be shit out of luck as they don’t have super-valuable skills that others want to use. Nor do they have enough in the way of savings to get the skills they will need. Not even if they have cash buried in sealed glass jars around the shitstead.

  52. No matter how we choose to live, we all must have balance. (Balance is much harder than MATH.)

    Sometimes you are close, but not quite balanced. This is ok! 🙂

    If you do not even get close to balance, & are at the end of either spectrum, you are an extremist.

    Nauglers are extremists. Terrorists are extremists. Religious fanatics are extremists. ETC

    Extremists are not generally good at much of anything of value to society, except wrecking HAVOC.

    They spend much energy on extreme ideas, so they fail immensely at the most important ones.

    I get that KIDS don’t come with a manual.

    But after popping out that many goats out of the Clown Car (Vagina,) you start to put 2 & 2 together.

    But that would be MATH, which is much harder than…common sense!

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