And another one.  Again while driving. Somebody needs to make a law about that, seriously.

I wanted to do another vlog this morning, um, for the vlog series that I’m doing, but I wanted to, um, talk about something different. I wanted to talk about my children’s perspective of all of this. Um, I think that it’s something that people have overlooked, is that they wanna do what’s best for my children but they don’t try to put themselves in my children’s shoes. They’re putting themselves in their own biased position.

Um, um, obviously my children have lived with us their entire lives and they have not been isolated from the outside world as people try to convince you of or whatever, have tried to convince people of. Um, my children are out and about, interacting with other people all the time.

They’ve lived in a real house, and blah, blah, blah. But, here’s the thing, is that when CPS took them, my children knew that they weren’t abused. My children knew that they weren’t neglected. My children knew that they are cared for and that they’re loved. So, when this happened, it was very hard for them to understand what was going on and why it was happening.

Especially the younger ones, you know, [child’s name “L”], I can still see effects of this trauma. Being taken from your family for eight weeks is traumatic. I don’t care who you are or what situation you’re in, it is traumatic. Even more so when you’re being torn, not only from your parents, but they were torn from each other. That, in and of itself, is extremely emotionally abusive to do that to children who aren’t in any danger. To continue that. . .

The court case still being open for family court is extremely stressful, not only for us as parents, but for my children, who wonder, every time we go to court [she begins to cry] if they’re gonna be taken again, because they know we’re not doing anything wrong. We know that everything is fine. They know this. But they also know the courts don’t know, or the courts don’t care, or whatever it is that took them in the first place. If they can take them once without justification, they can take them again without justification.

So this is something my children deal with every day this case is open. And I don’t think anyone takes this into consideration when they try to persecute my family, when they try to find some reason to justify the taking of them. They don’t think about that.

These children know the truth.

So no matter what side of the fence you’re on, or what side of the support group you’re on, that is something that is real for these children.

Then you add into it the criminal activity. The criminal accusations. The, you know, the goats at large, and the composting issue we had to go to court for, and, um, and most recently with Q. My children know that these are all false allegations. My children know these things. And you can’t make them not know that. So when they see the justice system working in the manner that it has, I’m not sure what you expect them to think, or who you expect them to trust.

You know, people say that I brainwash my kids into being anti-government. My kids are raised as we raise them to question everything. They’re raised to question government and when they see something that’s not appropriate, we discuss current events, we discuss local events, we discuss personal events, and if they see something that’s not right, they know it needs to be rectified. You know, whether it be issues in government, politics or whatnot.

And so they know to question authority when it doesn’t sit well with what they already know to be true in their hearts. We talk about things, just, police misconduct, police brutality, it’s on the news, we see it every day. Um, if you pay attention to any, any media source, you see it. We talk about those instances. We talk about how laws are being perverted for the benefit of some and not all. Um, how the Constitution is being ripped apart. We talk about those things.

And so my children see and understand these things that are going on.

And I understand that some people think that the way that we do things are wrong, and that they’re trying to save my children, but, you’re not helping them. You’re not. You know, people are upset because they think I’m brainwashing my kids to hate government, and to hate law enforcement, which is totally not true. My children have formed their own opinions of these things based on their own experiences. It has nothing to do with what we’ve convinced them of.

And even with my older teenagers, there are, there are religious and political views that we have that aren’t the same, and we allow them to have their own independent views with those things. But that’s one thing that’s consistent is my children are learning this distrust for the agencies that are supposed to be protecting them, and they’re not.

And I mentioned the other day, you know, the courts want to do more, more testing on the children. That means leaving the case open for longer. We’re coming up on two years now. I’m not sure how much longer my children are gonna tolerate this. I’m not sure how much longer this is gonna be to where anyone can justify these actions. There’s been nothing substantiated, other than the fact we didn’t register for home school, which actually has nothing to do with education or not.

Having a driver’s license doesn’t make you a good or bad driver. It just means you’ve registered with the state. It has nothing to do with anything else. And the same thing with home school. It doesn’t matter if you’re registered or not. It doesn’t mean your kids aren’t educated because you didn’t register. And because you don’t teach conventional lessons doesn’t mean your children are ignorant. And it’s really bothers me that that’s kind of all wrapped into one. “Oh, well, they home school, they unschool, so the children must not be learning,” when that’s the complete opposite of what’s going on.

And, I just think that people need to start thinking about how this affects my children. How they understand things, because they are here. This is their life. And people are telling them that what they’re doing is wrong, that what they’re thinking is wrong, and how they feel is wrong, because it doesn’t fit into their little box. And that’s not right.

It’s not right to do it to adults, and it’s certainly not right to do it to children. It’s, it’s a bully tactic. And it needs to be addressed which is why I blogged today.

Um, I’m sure you guys will have comments and opinions and whatnot which you’re welcome to put them in the comments and this will be posted on Youtube, so you’ll have it there as well. But that was just something I wanted to express this morning that was on my mind all night. And you have a blessed day.

I’m going to talk about something personal here, mostly because we relate to the world around us via our personal experiences and because I think it’s pertinent.

I think Nicole actually believes this shit, this drivel that she’s saying.

She actually believes that they’ve “done nothing wrong, ” that they are model parents, that her children are pretty much perfect in terms of their raising, that their way of living is superior to everyone else’s, that the government is horrible and that she has taught her kids to think for themselves.

But you see, I was raised by a woman who was a fundamentalist Christian and she believed all the same things.  I am talking devoutly fundamentalist. She lived, breathed, ate and slept Jesus. She went through several Bibles, marking them up and studying them incessantly and attending church every time the doors opened. At one point, during my late teens, she decided that Jesus wanted her to give every single dime she had in income to the church and she did just that, causing her to lose her house because she didn’t pay the mortgage. Somehow, Jesus was supposed to either rescue her or something. In the end, when it became obvious that Jesus wasn’t coming to the rescue, she decided that Jesus had had enough of her money and it was no longer necessary and that it was all part of his “plan.”

So I get the idea of the True Believer.

And I think, really, that Nicole Naugler is a True Believer.

Not in Jesus, but in her alt-view of the world, including a whole lot of alternative facts. Instead of having her nose and mind in a Bible all the time, she has her nose in her phone, reading wacky FB pages and web sites and meditating on conspiracy theories.  That’s why she says about police brutality:  “. . . it’s on the news, we see it every day.”  She sees it every day the way my mother saw the book of John or the Revelation or Genesis every day.

Anyway, I was raised in that fundy world.  My parents were divorced, in large part because my mother was a religious whackjob, and she had custody of us, so there we were. I did attend public school after a brief stint in religious schooling resulted in my expulsion (I was delighted), so I had a huge advantage over many in that I was exposed to the larger world and some totally different viewpoints, but still, home is the primary place where views and values are shaped.

I remained entrapped in fundamentalism, only venturing away briefly in my early twenties, until I was in my late forties.  That is a long, long time in prison, folks.

It wasn’t all awful. I went to nursing school, got married, and ultimately Nathan joined us and there were good, good times.  My husband was not raised in a religious setting, but went along with it because he loved me.

But despite the good times,  I am here to tell you, that even with my public schooling, and my nurses’ training (which was also Outside the insular world that is Fundyland), I had one hell of a time breaking free.  Losing Nathan was the hardest thing I have ever faced. Breaking free from religion was in first place up until Nathan died.

Children have no idea what is normal. They have no frame of reference. The Naugler children do not “know they are not neglected.” That’s ridiculous. No neglected children know they are neglected.  They know nothing else. Many abused children have no idea they are being abused. Abuse, for them, is normal.

The Naugler children are, in fact, isolated as hell. They are far more isolated than I was.  Nicole says they are “out and about” but they are “out and about” with her. Those kids have no friends outside of their siblings. They attend nothing but the shop and go to the store with their parents.  They don’t really even have TV, except for what brief programs or movies they get to watch on some small tablet, supervised by Mom or Dad.

Their entire worldview is shaped by their parents.

Obviously, all children are influenced greatly by their parents. That’s what parenting is, frankly.  It’s what “bringing up a child” means.

But to pretend that their opinions about things like government and the police are formed out of the ether is ridiculous.

When I deconverted at age nearly-fifty, I was politically so conservative it wasn’t even funny.  I voted as I was told to vote by my church. We were quite literally given a sheet to take into the voting booth with us telling us who to vote for. In order to become the flaming liberal I am today, I had to go back and dissect every single thing I’d been told and try to figure out what was true and what was bullshit. As a result, I am very pro-choice with some reservations. I am very liberal when it comes to social issues, with some reservations. I have turned out to be a mixture, but it was gut-wrenching and hard, hard work getting there.

I was politically conservative in my youth because my mother taught me to be politically conservative.

I was very devoutly Christian in my youth because my mother taught me to be devoutly Christian.

Nicole’s children hate government and the police because Nicole and Joe Naugler have systematically taught them to hate outside authority.  The fact that she cannot see this is amazing to me, but my mother couldn’t see that virgins can’t get pregnant and people can’t survive in a whale’s stomach and there was never any world-wide flood, so it happens.

Do you remember what Joe said to his poor little kids when they were taken by the state?  That little speech was absolute child abuse recorded and presented for the world to hear.

Nicole says that the kids have formed “their own opinions” based on their experiences.  And yes, they have.  Their experiences have consisted of Joe telling them that the state is gonna kidnap them, framing it in the worst possible way, striking terror into them. Their experiences have included Nicole having conversations in their presence or with them about how the police are brutal and shoot people for no reason at all, and about how the court system is corrupt and can’t ever be trusted.

In addition, all this stuff since then, since those children were returned, is entirely on Joe and Nicole. They don’t have to put their entire lives and that of their kids online, yet they keep doing it.  If they’d gotten those kids back and gone silent, we’d have all forgotten they existed by now.

I have never once contacted any of Nicole’s children. I don’t know anyone who has. They cannot find this site readily simply by Googling their own names because I don’t allow their names to be used here. If they know that this site exists, it’s because their parents told them.

She yammers on about how they know. Well, they might know, but they only know because their parents made sure they know and because their parents put their photographs and their biographical information from dates of birth to personalities and character flaws, as well as, in the case of one of them, affidavits of criminal charges online publicly.

So Nicole, just stop with this ridiculous blame-game. You and Joe are the parents. You control what information comes into your home, and in your case, you totally control it because you allow your children almost zero contact with the outside world unless you are there monitoring it all every second.

This is on you.


64 thoughts on “Brainwashed”

  1. They are brainwashing those youngings to make it out to seem like all authority is against them and to always be armed.

    On a side note…seems Mrs preggrs is eating fancy fish grill food while blh has slop for dinner again. So you need money to move but eat out every chance you get


  2. So true Sally! I don’t think Nicole shields her kids from anything. They are in on every decision & are equal in having a say. She can’t be away from them unless joe is with them or one of the older kids is watching them. She can’t even let them have their own bedrooms. I remember a blog she wrote on how they only all slept in the living room together & the rest of the house wasn’t used. I think joe was in jail at the time. I believe there is a syndrome named for this. Emotional something.

    Turning your children into your equal is known as “parentifying” him. I can think of no circumstance where it is of any benefit to anyone in the long run.


  3. I have little to add except something my family and I learned from many years of fostering.

    Not one child old enough to have any memory of their parental home did not want to go back to it. No matter how severely or terribly they were abused and/or neglected. That was their normal and anything else was suspect and abnormal to them. They didn’t know anything else and didn’t have the tools to discern the truth of their previous lives. This was true of every single one of them over the age of 3 when they were removed from it.


  4. I am so glad you made a post about this because I have been thinking about her boohoo vlog all day and could not have said it better myself..


  5. Dear Nicole,

    Let’s get one thing straight Nicole! If the state comes in to a home and removes someone’s children, it is NOT done lightly! If this happens to you AGAIN, it is going to be due to something, that has occurred, and is detrimental to your children! Do not try to pin THAT on anyone else but yourself! CPS isn’t going to go on anything but tremendous evidence of harm or neglect!

    You say you talk about EVERYTHING with ALL your children! We have all heard how Jo handles explaining things to your children, such as, The state is going to kidnap you all, and we don’t know for how long, oh but be reverent…

    You and Jo just need to understand that people. such as your neighbors, are NOT going to roll over and let your family walk all over them! You need to learn there are consequences for your whole families actions and alleged action. Those things will be settled where they should be, in a court of law!

    So just stop trying to pin your crappy parenting style, that may end up with you losing your children to CPS again, on the people that have chosen to stand up to you and your husband’s criminal ways!!

    Fucking own your shit!!!

    Sincerely, Me


  6. The Holy Church of Nicole and Joe of the Stupid Memes that Justify Being Shitty People.

    It is all those kids know. Can’t be that hot. First chance he got Jacob skipped out.


  7. Anyone who argues that children always have the capacity to see their lives objectively when those lives are controlled by fanatics should watch this documentary:

    From the youtube desciption:
    “Michael Travesser says he’s the Messiah. Formerly a sailor called Wayne Bent, Michael is the leader of a cult in New Mexico called Strong City. His 56 followers – men, women and children – hang on his every word, serving him with absolute and unquestioning devotion. ”


  8. Nicole isn’t a Christian though, she’s a half-assed Mormon.

    Yeah, you’ll regret that. Mormons are, in fact, Christian. I know Protestants don’t think they are, but then Catholics don’t think Protestants are right either. Please don’t start with this shit.

    Nicole is religiously all over the place, and says so herself, but she basically believes in God and believes in some sort of Christiany thing.

    She is not an atheist.


  9. Agree with all that was said…also someone please correct me if I’m wrong. On the Q&A thing the other day I think they said they didn’t know if Jacob would be moving his shed, that they weren’t sure if he’d keep making payments on it. So now she’s teaching them how to wreck their credit. That penalizes them for YEARS.
    I do not understand how you can handicap your kids with their finances at barely 18. No guidance, no responsibility, no thought for screwing up their lives.
    It makes me so angry…


  10. wreck their credit.

    I am not certain that walking away from a garden shed wrecks your credit. They don’t do a credit check in the first place. The interest rate is out the roof as a result of course. But it’s a terrible example to set to a kid.


  11. I read some of your old blogs today. My heart broke learning about your son’s young passing. I can’t even imagine. He was a beautiful soul. You must have felt terrible hurt when the lies about abuse were brought up. I googled and googled and found absolutely nothing to back up nn’s claims regarding Nathan. Shame on her. Your blog is wonderful, you have a talent for writing, it really flows no matter the subject. I want you to know that no matter what you blog about I love it. I love that you really don’t hide anything personal, you speak freely of your hardships and I truly admire you for that.


  12. So are Jacob and Faith going to leave the homestead and get a real home? I couldn’t watch the Q & A. Are they both still working?


  13. First and foremost, thank you for doing all the work of transcribing. It saves us from having to listen to Nicole ramble on.

    Nicole mentions that “Having a driver’s license doesn’t make you a good or bad driver. It just means you’ve registered with the state. It has nothing to do with anything else.” Um, wrong! Having a drivers license means you have passed a set of exams, both written and on the road, and have provided a set of legal documents that prove you are able to legally obtain the license. In the state I currently reside in and the other states I have lived in I have also always had to provide proof of financial responsibility in the form of insurance coverage. Sure the documents don’t prove that you are a good driver but the fucking test does.

    Now to get to the isolation of the children. Nicole does not allow her children to sleep over at friend’s home, she doesn’t allow them to go hang out with friends, she doesn’t allow them to even have one on one friends. She does isolate them. One question homeschoolers regular face is the socialization question. It gets old fast. But I do try my best to put on a smile and explain all the ways my children socialize. My children have all been in public school at one point or another. We live in the city and in a state where all extra curricular activities are open to homeschooled students and my children have taken advantage of those opportunities. We have an active teen library program. Through the years they’ve been involved in various different activities. And the big take away is they’ve all made friends, some local and some not so local. The thing is kids are people, they are individuals and they deserve to have individual lives.

    Because of the size of Nicole and Joe’s family it would be difficult for them to all have separate rooms. But I grew up mormon and knew many large families, very few had enough bedrooms so that all their children could have private bedrooms but in not one situation did they all share one bedroom. Most families tended to place smaller children together and allow the older ones more privacy. Teens need privacy, they need to be able to dress in private not because they are ashamed of their bodies but because it’s tough when your body is changing and yes you want to keep that private. As a mom it’s exhausting to be surrounded by people all day and I know the same holds true for my kids.

    I really want to ask Nicole how isolating her kids worked out? So far pretty damn fucking bad. I am not one to glamorize teen pregnancy. I don’t really think it’s something to be celebrated. Yeah call me a bitch but the statistics don’t lie, sure there are positive outcomes but they are few and far between. The fact is she has fucking isolated her kids and as soon as one went and met a girl on his own he got her pregnant. Ugh!

    And lastly, because I’ve rambled too much, she puts everything about her kids online. That is so rude and embarrassing. I’m sure she says they are fine with it but I truly doubt they are. My Facebook feed rarely includes pictures of my kids. I’ll occasionally post pictures of them or say something about them but it’s pretty rare because those are their stories to tell. Nicole posts every fucking detail about them, that’s not healthy. She even mentioned her son by name and said what he was charged with and had him there for the fucking news interview. Mother of the fucking year there…NOT!

    So I counter that Nicole is full of shit. I am sure her kids are lovely. I am sure they are functioning to the best of their abilities but they are still being isolated and it might fuck them up for life. Normal parents don’t expect their kids to stay with them forever. Normal families have kids move out and start lives of their own. Kids go off to college or get jobs. They don’t impregnate a co-worker they’ve known for a few months and buy a shed so they can live next door.

    Fuck you Nicole. You are isolating your kids and you sure as hell are indoctrinating them.

    Oh more rambling, do the kids all share an iPad? Do the teens have their own phones? Is anyone else able to find information without mom and dad knowing or is everything controlled by them? Yeah I know the answer. It’s pretty damn obvious.

    And Nicole, you say they can make their own decisions but you’ve also stated that if any of them wanted to go to public school you wouldn’t allow it. So yeah, once again your own words prove you are a lying piece of shit. Your kids are free to choose, free to express opinions as long as they are the right ones.


  14. ‘we allow them to have their own independent views with those things’
    This right here is a statement that shows how she views her children. As her property and an extension of her she allows them to have ‘independent views’ not she encourages them to or accepts them having their own views but she allows it.
    I have a different view point from my parents on several things and that is perfectly normal. My mother had a hard time with this and till I left home I often had a hard time as a result. Independent thoughts/behaviour from her resulted in negative experiences for me ocassionally enforced by my father as she was a good manipulator. Thankfully I had the education to live on my own terms and eventually state the boundaries needed for me to have a relationship with them. Life is much happier now.
    Yet my childhood was certainly not terrible and truly wonderful compared to the Nkids. I could get a job, further education, a passport and had access to the documentation I needed to forge my own way. I had plenty of experiences outside my home and friends my parents had never even met.
    The Nkids (with the exception of one/two having a birth certificate) have none of this. I truly believe this is done on purpose to keep the kids following their parents philosophy. The world is a scary place sometimes and I can imagine in their shoes I’d be terrified of so many things. Nicole and Joe are the only ones to blame for that fear. Those kids need to be removed from that hell and though it might a hard transition it is the best chance they have.


  15. She thinks she’s raising critical thinking children into adults. She’s raising puppets. I say this because the young ones in our care believed everything their parents said and did were A-ok. Mom and dad are in prison for numerous meth and child endangerment charges. Dad was once charged with attempted murder for beating a man with a hammer. He did it, but victim refused to testify and fled the state; state dropped charges. Kids believed he did nothing wrong.

    Now, they have been living in the same house and going to the same school for years. They bathe regularly and have beds. They have clean clothes and warm meals cooked for them. We’re here every night and every morning to make sure they’re ready for school and to help with homework. Now, they know what it’s like to actually be cared for, instead of someone telling them that they are. It took 2 years for them to understand that.

    8 weeks isn’t enough time to “reprogram” their way of thinking. They won’t know what they’re lacking for many years to come.


  16. You must have felt terrible hurt when the lies about abuse were brought up.

    The first time it ever happened was not Nicole. It was a different situation and a different person. Same BS, though. I was stunned, and pretty upset, but Dave is brilliant. He read what that person said and suggested that I use the incident to advertise the music. I did. The result was astonishing. New fans. Lots of music played.

    It no longer bothers me so much because I always, always use it to do what Nate would want: get the music played.

    And yes, he was a beautiful guy and he was also his parents’ best friend.

    Thank you for the very nice comment.


  17. I am sure her kids are lovely. I am sure they are functioning to the best of their abilities

    I am not sure of that at all. Not one bit sure. How would anyone know?


  18. “Then you add into it the criminal activity. The criminal accusations. The, you know, the goats at large, and the composting issue we had to go to court for, and, um, and most recently with Q. My children know that these are all false allegations.”

    Neither goatgate nor the composting issue are false allegations. J is on probation for the goats and a court-ordered Port-a-Potty was required for the second incident. For the children to believe that these charges were brought falsely means that N & J are not being honest with them. Also concerning is that the incident with Q is lumped with these, as if trying to convince people that incident is equally “false.”


  19. Neither goatgate nor the composting issue are false allegations.

    Extremely good points.

    Livestock running around loose is a criminal offense as Joe found out. And one other thing. She is now saying that the “goats got loose.” They did not “get loose.” They were just loose all the time. She bragged about it because “free range” is the really cool term too use nowadays but simply means “we don’t protect our livestock but just let them do whatever and we don’t give a flying fuck about our neighbors.”

    And it wasn’t a “composting issue.” It was an issue involving shitting in buckets and dumping it on the ground, something that they very likely continue to do.


  20. I had a lovely time with most of a nice bottle of Rose discovering Nathan’s music and it was ages after much music and wine that I remembered his passing and all I felt was that you and your hubby had created someone so wonderful. Also your Mum was an Aussie war bride. One of my Mums cousins left on one of those ships. What an adventure! As a young girl I’d keep my eye out for one for myself. Anyhow Hi from Brisbane. It didn’t happen.


  21. One side of my family consists of poor, almost “white trash”, almost “hillbilly ” family. (I do hate those labels, hence the quotations. ) At any rate, there was rampant incest, brothers marrying step sisters, buggering between cousins, alcoholism, violence. Just name it, it happened. Social isolation because of the weirdness. Of all of the cousins in my age range, on that branch of the family, two are constantly in and out of jail, drug addled alcoholics that can’t hold a job. One is a wealthy, hard worker and the other two are problem ridden. One thing that stood out was when my cousin told me that they’d never learned social skills, not even proper table manners . She told me how hard it was when they joined the world, after they left home. How they all had to learn how to navigate in the world, appropriately, as young adults, on their own. She taught her children much differently and made sure to raise them very socially. I believe that you can set kids on a path to abject failure by isolating them from a wider world view. I believe it’s a form of neglect. I believe the road for those kids is going to be very difficult. It’s a shame. Shitting in buckets and waving guns around aren’t life skills or ideological values. Theft is a crime, not a right. And the world requires people that know how to get along with each other, not fight everyone and everything in the way.


  22. So the kids are encouraged to question authority? Wonder what would happen if they questioned their parents’ authority. I don’t think it be very nice for whatever kid questioned Joe or Nicole.

    Joe and Nicole aren’t even Mormons, for all intents and purposes. They’ve gotten kicked out (which happens very rarely), and they’ve walked out when the church leaders had enough of them welching off the membership and welfare program. So Joe adapted some terminology and went to town with his own weird religio-philosophy thing. Guess he likes to feel important calling himself a prophet.


  23. The Naug parents are sanctimonious to the point of accepting no responsibility for the circumstances that brought them to this point. One has to only look at the pics on Wave3 of the abysmal living conditions that got the children removed in the first place, to see parental failure. No child should live like that. The children don’t know that and the parents won’t own it because of rabid “meh rights” to live in a pig sty. Their failure to comply with the CPS forensics that NN has referred to, plus the criminal complaints, would be directly responsible for them still being under scrutiny.

    The constant negativity that the parents spew, habitually looking for bad news, is a helluva way to raise children. Telling your children that “the police will shoot you, that is what they do” (Nicole’s words) is indeed indoctrinating your children. Own it. Dumping buckets of shit & sawdust on your property and then denying it, teaches children to lie. Threatening “I’m filing a lawsuit” ad nauseam demonstrates victim status to rage against the world. Blaming everyone else for life failures teaches them that they are powerless over their own destiny. It would be no wonder that the children are fearful as that is exactly what they have been taught. Naugs have done the worst possible job of demonstrating how to live a joyous life. Chrissakes, Naug parents, own your shit.


  24. Sounds like Nicole is working her kids anxiety levels sky high with her versions of the “truth”. It is extremely telling when she talks about all of the past offenses as “false allegations”. This is what her kids know too? Reality is hard.

    The testing has really got her worked up. She probably already knows good and well what the outcome will reveal.


  25. Anyhow Hi from Brisbane

    Brisbane. I don’t think I have any rellies there. Mine are all in Benalla, Victoria, and Sydney and Newcastle, and I have a cousin up in Queensland. Such a lovely country. We’ve considered emigrating.


  26. I absolutely agree Sally! Nicole is a true believer. She takes every article she reads from her slanted alternative news sources as gospel truth. She’ll even post and comment on an article without even reading the story as long as the headline can be twisted and construed to line up with her radical views. She’ll post and comment on what she believes an article says apparently without even reading beyond the headline. The story actually may conflict with her opinion, but who reads anymore? As Nicole has said you can’t teach reading.

    When she had her little run-in with Sheriff Pate, I honestly think that she believed that the Sheriff was going to shoot her as she was screaming at the top of her lungs for help…dramatics for the purpose of the recording really. When she yelled at her boys that the Sheriff would shoot them because “that’s what they do when you don’t comply,” I think she actually believed that. You can bet her children view the police (or any authority figure for the matter) as evil and out to get them. Teaching fear, hatred and paranoia to their children must their version of “unschooling.”


  27. The simple thing to do to close the CPS case is to comply with what they are asking for. Anyone who half heartedly follows this crazy train realized months ago that CPS retained legal custody and was demanding testing. You cant delay said test for months and years and expect them to close the case.


  28. I know first hand the effects of isolation on a child. I adopted my daughter from a Russian orphanage. The ladies who worked there did their best with limited resources. They had 70-plus kids under the age of 7 and it was all they could do to keep them housed and fed. And any institution, even a “good” one, still isn’t the same as having a family.

    My daughter spent almost two years on the second floor of the building. The first time I visited her and the attendants stepped out, my translator told me to hold Katya up to the window so she could see outside. Being inside all the time can interfere with the development of a baby’s vision. She hadn’t had an opportunity to focus her eyes at different distances, or to track a moving object. She never heard a variety of noises. Never heard music at all, or television, or someone reading a book. The whole building was eerily quiet. When you have that many kids in one building you don’t encourage a lot of talking. When I got custody Katya was 20 months old and wasn’t even babbling. She had never experienced movement in a swing, or stroller or car, so her vestibular sense never developed. She had never been rocked or bounced so she didn’t have a sense of rhythm. Never touched a stuffed animal, all the toys there were hard plastic so they could be easily cleaned.

    She had a mouth full of teeth but had never eaten anything dry or crunchy. No crackers or cheerios. Veggies, bits of bread, and meat were served in one bowl and swimming in broth. The translator explained that when you have so many toddlers to feed it takes too much time if they have to chew. That means facial muscles don’t get developed.

    I asked why all the girls had very short hair cuts. My translator said “Only girls with mothers have long hair. Only mothers have time to wash and brush hair.” I vowed right there that my baby could grow out her hair. She’s been home 10 years now and her hair gets trimmed once a year. It’s down to the middle of her back. She’s 12 but I still brush her hair every morning. It’s symbolic to us.

    Katya was fortunate to be abandoned at the hospital the day she was born. I met another two year old who had spent a year or so living with her neglectful mother. The mother would leave her alone in her crib while she went out partying for hours, even over night. The baby was left laying by herself in a silent dark house. Her senses never developed. I spent a few hours with her and she never moved, never made a sound. She was completly shut down.

    Katya had 6 years of occupational therapy, 6 years of speech therapy, special educational services, and three years of private school. I could devote all my time and resources to her because she’s my only child. Now she talks non-stop and makes straight A’s. She still doesn’t like noisy places and has a little anxiety but she’s happy and healthy and loved.

    Isolating kids, limiting their life experiences can mess a kid up in so many different ways. The N kids make me so sad. Every time I see photos of the slop they eat I think of orphanage meals. The little girl with the short hair, I know it’s a choice she made, it’s cooler, easier to keep clean, etc. But every time I see a photo I remember that girls with long hair have mothers that take time to brush it.


  29. “Brisbane. I don’t think I have any rellies there. Mine are all in Benalla, Victoria, and Sydney and Newcastle, and I have a cousin up in Queensland. Such a lovely country. We’ve considered emigrating.”

    Wow Sally. My relatives are all from Sydney, Benalla (especially Benalla – my mum was born there) and Melbourne. Maybe we’re related haha! You and Dave would absolutely be welcome here, I’m sure.

    And you would be away from the clutches of Trump, although our polls aren’t much better.


  30. Here is what I genuinely don’t understand: I am raising small kids, right? And I believe in raising them to question everything, and there are even things we teach them that overlap with what Nicole teaches. My kids know that people are fallible, which means that just because someone is in a position of authority doesn’t mean they have all the answers, or that everything they say is right, whether it is the President, a teacher, etc. They are allowed to disagree with or ask questions of all of the above, as long as they are polite.

    What my kids DON’T see is that, behind the scenes, I question every parenting decision I make. Some I agonize over. I took my youngest daughter to Disney World this week and left my older child at home with Grandma because he’s too cool for Disney and he has school. This decision ended up with me sobbing in the middle of a gift shop in EPCOT because what kind of mom leaves her kiddo behind? Then I freaked out because what if I just feel that way because I am overly attached to the boy child in an unhealthy way?

    The bottom line is that how do you question/distrust everyone around you, and then truly believe your logic and reason and motives are all spot-on, all the time? If you teach your children that attorneys and judges and police officers and the neighbors are wrong so often and so profoundly, what is so different about Nicole that she is always right?


  31. BLB wrote, “Nicole is religiously all over the place, and says so herself, but she basically believes in God and believes in some sort of Christiany thing.

    She is not an atheist.”

    She is a true believer in the power of begging. She pays homage to it on her blogs. We need to continue to give them money because they clearly can’t and won’t live within their means. You don’t want this family to starve or suffer want or deprivation because you decide it’s more important to pay your own bills, feed your own family, save for your own retirement – how selfish.

    I wonder how it feels to become Fagin? I guess she’s gone one further as she’s the actual parents of the kids. Brava Nicole, you’ve outdone Dickens.


  32. This is old. Tent City has since been demolished and near the end it got somewhat chaotic and it was not idyllic. But look at what people who had less than Joe and Nicole were able to accomplish to keep the elements at bay, fed, clean and mostly safe. Joe never put in even HALF the effort that most of these people did. Ever.


  33. Things Nicole says and apparently can’t connect in her little brain:

    “We talk about things, just, police misconduct, police brutality, it’s on the news, we see it every day. Um, if you pay attention to any, any media source, you see it. We talk about those instances. We talk about how laws are being perverted for the benefit of some and not all. Um, how the Constitution is being ripped apart.”


    “You know, people are upset because they think I’m brainwashing my kids to hate government, and to hate law enforcement, which is totally not true.”

    Yeah. Right.

    If children are only presented one view at the world, that’s the view they’ll adopt for at least their childhood, often longer.
    And that doesn’t have anything to do with whether this view is true or justified.
    Children are fiercely loyal towards their parents and the views these parents have taught them.
    That’s all.
    getting your child to agree with you on something you taught them all their life is not an achievement.

    Another a point that Nicole can’t seem to comprehend:
    Children love their parents – no matter what.
    Children love their parents even of they abuse them, mistreat them, beat them, kill their siblings and so on.
    That Nicole’s children were sad and suffered because they were removed from their parents says nothing about the Naugler’s parenting skills or home life. Nothing at all. It’s just how children are.

    (Disclaimer 1: That sometimes changes when children turn into teenagers but even those are mostly fiercely loyal and love their parents no matter what, especially if they have no “outside” person to turn to.
    Disclaimer 2: Parents in the sense of this text don’t have to be biological parents but the persons who are functioning as parents in the children’s life.)


  34. Tori, you have me in tears…..your daughter is so fortunate to wanted and loved. So happy you found one another and became Mother and Daughter.


  35. I thought a lot about her post last night…. And as other have pointed out here the Naugler children have no odea of what good or normal or bad or neglected looks like. They know what their parents tell them.

    I grew up in a pretty abusive household. Like a horrible names, beatings and killing family pets kind of household. Much like I imagine Nicole must be in her household. Anyone who had nicw things had to be doing something bad. We were isolated from aunts and uncles and grandparents. We did attend public school, and we did have a house, albeit a pretty dumpy one. And I never knew that was not how other people lived until I turned 14 and started going to friends homes after school.

    Anyway, like I said yesterday, if Nicole and Joe were wanting to live drama free they would stop the nonsense and comply with state orders. The very fact that the children were returned to a freaking garden shed is indication enough that the state really does not want custody of your brood.


  36. My parents are friends with the Amish in this part of the state. I find them odd, they live in houses without electricity or running water. The houses are clean, spotless and minimalistic. The ladies are clean, some of the men smell. Honestly, they are inbred. I questioned my father & he explained that they were because they don’t have much choice. WHAT? The little children go without shoes in summer & they have 6 toes (I kid you not). These children are brainwashed. They believe that you loose years off of your life if you are photographed. (They don’t drive but hire or barter for rides). The often visit my parents and watch T.V. (basketball). My father owns a gymnasium and they play ball in it. They receive education from a bible math is taught from money or building. Very little is learned otherwise. They are unschooled. These Amish are nothing like the T.V. show. They rarely trust an outsider. The only reason my DAD is friends with them is to share the gym, sometimes he hires them to work. I feel sorry for the children, they are guarded from adults because they only allow them to know about some modern technology.


  37. N talks about her children’s beliefs, which she says are like hers, as if she has one child and not eleven. I come from a family of six children and as adults we have wildly different beliefs. As children we knew that it was safest to agree with our parents. The children may be unschooled but they aren’t stupid.


  38. Lots of Old-Order Mennonites and various sects of Amish around here. They differ, sometimes pretty dramatically. They have little to do with me (woman), but Dave has made friends with lots of them, to the point that they greet him by name when they see him. He knows not only them, but their kids.

    Some of the younger men will talk to Dave for long periods of time because he’s the only atheist they have ever met (that they knew was atheist). He doesn’t announce it, but we have stickers on our car that make it pretty unmistakable if you know what you’re looking for. And once one of them found out, it became common knowledge in a matter of days. They know very little and always ask him about political stuff (their views are almost entirely slanted way to the right for some reason). He has chatted with them enough to become aware that at least some of them secretly access the internet.

    And we’ve learned the hard way to never, ever enlist any of them for animal welfare of any sort.


  39. There’s an additional cruel twist to growing up in an isolated family. I knew that some of the things being done to me (let’s just say, trigger warnings would apply) were wrong because my instincts revolted against them and because the adults looked so strange and scary while it was happening. But I was thoroughly trained not to even think about telling, so I had no external standard against which to measure what was happening to me, except books. And books–pshhh, people can write anything down, right? I wanted the books about loving parents and siblings and safe schools to be true, but reality was not that way. So I spent years and years of my life both feeling hurt/angry/sad that stuff was being done to me, and guilty that I was secretly being defiant–and guilty for escaping into books all the time instead of being a strong, mature person who faced reality.

    The truth was that I was a bullied, abused, and isolated child whose family of origin, neighborhood, and school were all deeply messed up. I was kind of an outlier in that the only safe and sane place I had to go was church. My church actually lived out Jesus’ teachings, and I was never harmed there. I just…couldn’t tell. Couldn’t even form the notion that there was anything to tell.

    It’s a cage that’s inside your own head. It can take decades to even realize that it exists. Years of therapy to be able to face the world as an adult, without fricking flinching all the time.

    Those poor kids.


  40. I worked in south Ga. for a few years managing a private horse farm. There was a small community of Amish families. I would see them in town at the feed store, diner, etc. and my Farrier was Amish. Often, on the weekends, friends and I would go to “the big city” for dinner and then to a club for some dancing/drinks afterwards. I can’t tell you how many times I ran into these people. Mostly the men but occasionally some of the young, unmarried women. All wearing clothing like me, not typical Amish garb. They drink/smoke/dance. And carry cell phones. I may have given a small “half smile” if our eyes met, but I never initiated conversation nor did I ever reflect on the time I saw them in the big city when being in the feed store at the same time the next week! For that, I do believe my farrier was always grateful as his wife was usually with him in town. But she wasn’t the woman who was with him at the bar!

    Yes, over generations of intermarriage, rare genetic flaws have shown up, flaws which most of us carry within our genetic makeup but which don’t show up unless we marry someone else with the same rare genetic markers.


  41. N said, “It doesn’t matter if you’re registered or not. It doesn’t mean your kids aren’t educated because you didn’t register. And because you don’t teach conventional lessons doesn’t mean your children are ignorant. And it’s really bothers me that that’s kind of all wrapped into one. “Oh, well, they home school, they unschool, so the children must not be learning,” when that’s the complete opposite of what’s going on.”

    Teaching freshmen-graduate students how to write has given me some experience on the subject of education. Of course, in education one can never make blanket statements such as all public school children or all home schooled children are this or that. For instance, there are some home schooled children who are able to enter college without taking any of the remedial courses (it’s rare), and I’ve seen some students from public schools who may be in need of remedial math or remedial writing. What’s significant is the level of remediation courses that students are required to take. Unless the student has a learning disability, the public school student who wasn’t prepared for college may be required to one semester of remediation in maybe two subjects; however, the poorly homeschooled students’ are often so behind that they end up taking four semesters of remediation in three subjects (reading, writing, and math).

    We really need to understand that remediation is teaching very basic reading, math, and writing. Remediation courses don’t apply toward a student’s degree, yet they cost the same amount of money as core courses. Additionally, grants rarely pay for remedial courses, and if a student is having to take two years or more worth of remediation before he or she can even start collecting college credit, he or she often becomes frustrated and drops out of college. It’s the difference in earning a BA in four years versus 6 years.

    Now N is all stressed because the judge is insisting that the her children be tested to measure any progress. She’s stressed because she knows they haven’t made progress. To make progress, an adult must participate in teaching reading, writing, math, science, history, etc. I suspect that the Naugler children are not being taught the basics that are a right of all children in the USA—let me repeat that one more time—the basics that are a right of all children in the USA. If a child has been denied his or her right to an education that prepares him or her for college, trade school, or getting a job that requires at least a high school diploma or a GED, his or her rights have been denied.

    My granddaughter is the same age as N’s youngest little girl; however, the difference between the two is so sad. Even comparing my granddaughter to N’s older daughter leaves the oldest daughter coming up short. My granddaughter’s reading level is off the chart and every summer she is invited to participate in college credit courses for gifted and talented students at an R1 university (last year, she was the only eight-year-old in the program and probably will be the only nine-year-old this year). Recently, she helped me with some landscaping and tree trimming at our property, so we paid her 50 dollars and she had some money she had saved from her allowance. I took her to Walmart so she could get some rubbermaid products for her bedroom (doll storage…she isn’t ready to give them up yet). She picked the two containers she wanted, but there wasn’t a price displayed; plus, they were up on a shelf too high for either of us to reach. I didn’t participate in the problem solving for her because she was on it. She found a Walmart sales person and he came over and checked on the price and told her and very quickly she added the two together and then she asked him to get them down for her. She also subtracted the amount to find out if she had enough money left to buy a wireless mouse for her laptop. I walked with her to the cashier where she paid for her products and then she counted the money the cashier gave her before putting it in her wallet. When we got in the car, she did the math again, looked at the sale’s receipt, and said, gee, money doesn’t go very far does it?

    I would hate to see those children placed in separate foster homes; in fact, I’d hate to see them removed from their parents. What I wish would happen is that the N’s would provide those kids with the nurturing, education, nutritional, and physical requirements that are the kids’ rights. But, sadly, we know that before N would comply with “regulations”, she would stand back and scream and cry while her kids were pulled from their homes and placed in various foster homes.N and J are rude, crude, and socially unacceptable which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Lonesome Dove. Captain Call: “I hate rude behavior in a man. I won’t tolerate it.” Maybe the family court judge will also hate the rude behavior and take a stance or more for those children.


  42. I took a brief moment out of my way too busy day because I was thinking about children, isolation and brainwashing. Please pardon my personal anecdote included in this comment.

    Nicole tends to place herself on this pedestal of superior large family mothering. She says it’s so easy, whizzes right past questions regarding how to do it.

    The fact is parenting a large family is not easy. When children are all young it is a little easier in some ways yet still not easy by any means. We chose to have a large family but also chose to have them close together, that gives unique challenges but also in many ways is simpler. None of my older children ever had to tend to baby siblings because the oldest was 6 when the youngest was born. So honestly in my family I’ve never had the luxury of an older pairing up with a little. My husband and I have had to do the parenting on our own, as it should be. The biggest issue now is having older children going a bunch of different directions and making sure they are able to have those unique opportunities. We do it but often it leaves me exhausted. My family is half the size of Nicole’s and it’s not easy. I have a calendar on my phone with multiple alarms everyday so I don’t forget to get someone somewhere. We plan our year out in advance so we know when we will have time to do family vacations without interfering with the kids obligations and activities. We plan like crazy and still I find myself swearing I’ve forgotten something.

    The difference in my home and why my big family life is so chaotic is because my children are active and involved. Occasionally they will all do the same activity, my middle two share similar interests and have friends in common. But mostly it involves going from one end of town to the other. It involves early mornings and late nights.

    Life is probably easier for Nicole with her 11 children because they aren’t active and involved. They don’t go out into the community, they don’t individually take lessons or hang out with friends, the don’t have weekly activities that they commit to.

    It’s easier for her to say “hey this is so easy” than admit that it’s so easy because they are isolated and uninvolved.

    She posts every fucking thing they do. She gleefully posts pictures when they go to the store to prove they go out. Guess what? My kids go to the fucking store with me too, every damn time because they have this spider sense when I want to grocery shop alone. Lol.

    If Nicole’s kids were doing stuff she’d post pictures because they have no fucking privacy. She tells it all.

    So yeah it’s easier for her to say she is this amazing mom of 11+ because her 11+ are isolated unless they are working for her.

    End rant, now back to the grind.


  43. Jenny you summed it up completely. It took me damn near 20 years of not living that life to get my head together and realize I did not have to live a scared, miserable, isolated life. It takes a damn long time to unwind a head fake like the Naugler kids are living.


  44. @m
    Thank you for the link & explanations of the extra fingers and toes. My parents attended an Amish funeral for a baby girl born with dwarfism. She had lived a couple of years & yes, I was told it was a heart deformity. She was buried in a pine box made by the family men. No funeral home involved. My mom explained the long walk to the site in freshly cut grass. (No mover, it was cut by hand). The service was in German but they were honored my parents attended.
    @Blessed Little Blog
    Ask Dave if he is following the Amish man (S. G.) Jailed for selling a salve made of beeswax and chickweed? WKYT (T.V. station) has done a recent story. It’s a strange way of life but I do know they access the internet. Recently, Dad asked me to look up a story they had seen online and show it to him. The truth is, these Amish will cheat you every chance they can while they sing praises & clap their hands. Many, Many times my father has been cheated. He only admits it if questioned. I think it’s because they think my father is wealthy. He’s land rich but cash poor.


  45. The truth is, these Amish will cheat you every chance they can while they sing praises & clap their hands.

    I think that the larger truth is that Amish people are just people. They are not “godly,” because “godly” isn’t a thing at all. They are just folks. Some of them are very nice, good people. Some of them are assholes. Some of them are sometimes good and sometimes assholes. 🙂

    But we will never use an Amish farrier again, ever.


  46. Well, this sounds a bit Nauglerish, doesn’t it? One thing we’ve learned about these Amish people is that they are not nearly as ignorant as they pretend to be when it suits them. This guy could have solved all this at the outset by simply meeting with the appropriate people and finding out exactly what is permitted to be on the label. He appears to have not done that and basically ignored the hell out of the authorities. Amish people are standoffish when it comes to the rest of society, but like the Ns, they simply cannot opt out altogether. Too many laws have already been bent for them. (See Wisconsin v. Yoder to see what I mean)


  47. Ok, with your background in Fundamentalism you know very well that Nicole doesn’t believe in a Christian God. The god she worships is one she created for herself with tidbits of Mormonism thrown in.

    Mormonism’s made up god isn’t anything at all like the God of the Bible.

    I’d love to discuss it with you, because I think Nicole’s self-created belief system has a lot to do with most of her problems.

    But Mormonism is a cult, not Christianity.


  48. But Mormonism is a cult, not Christianity.

    A “cult” is simply a religion with fewer adherents than yours. And yes, I can debate the Bible as long as anyone wishes to do so. I can quote a whole lot of it. But the word “cult” is just used by certain sects of Christianity as a pejorative for other sects that they do not agree with.

    Mormonism’s made up god isn’t anything at all like the God of the Bible.

    The “god of the Bible” is also a made-up god. I know this won’t set well with you, but it’s true. There is no more evidence for the existence of one than there is for the existence of the other. Furthermore, the Mormon concept of ‘God’ is just an elaboration on Jehovah. It’s the same ‘God.’ One version is just wearing a toga and the other version is wearing a suit, but it’s the same guy.

    Nicole’s religious ideas don’t have anything to do with her problems. She uses religion as a tool for begging, basically. I suspect that she glommed onto Mormonism simply because as a church, they are probably way more generous than other Christian sects. A Baptist church wouldn’t have tolerated Joe and Nicole nearly as long as the Mormons did, and Baptists don’t have anything that comes close to the Bishop’s Storehouse (I think that’s the proper name for it – the Mormon “welfare” system). Her “belief system” isn’t about religion. It’s about paranoia regarding the state, resistance to any sort of authority and a refusal to see that Joe is a parasite of the worst sort.

    Christians have a terrible, awful habit of redrawing the circle to remove anyone they see as undesirable. You can’t do that. You have to own Hitler. I’m an atheist and we have to own Stalin. Doing so doesn’t make either you or me bad. The logical fallacy here is called the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.


  49. @ Blessed Little Blog
    Perfect point. He changed the label 3 times to try to beat big government and big pharma out of the legal rights to said medication. He’s in jail & has has been photographed at least twice. They are said to live at the foot of the cross but they don’t follow laws and rules of society. #brainwashed for generations, isolated when it suits them & follow their own rules and create fear as a method of control.


  50. It sounds as if you may have a nightmare of a farrier, Sally! The Amish farrier I used only trimmed the horses I kept barefoot.
    I used another farrier to shoe horses and a “show-shoe” farrier for all horses showing. The show-shoe farrier has to make sure all shoes are in compliance with the rules and regulations of The Arabian Horse Association (AHA). It’s a precise job they must do and any horse entering the ring can be disqualified because the farrier made a minor error in measurement etc.

    Well…enough horsey talk!


  51. Our Amish farrier almost destroyed one of our donkeys. We didn’t know what was wrong. We had both of them trimmed regularly. Our former farrier moved away (he was also Amish) and we got a new guy. It was slow for us to realize but we kept having to get him out sooner and sooner, way less time between trimmings (like four weeks instead of three months) and we didn’t understand why.

    Georgia began limping badly, and finally started lying down and refusing to get up. We dragged her to the barn and if you’ve never owned a donkey who didn’t want to go to the barn, you have no idea what that means. It was a rodeo. We got the farrier out. He informed us that she had “foot rot” and would probably die from it. He almost shrugged when he said it.

    In despair (we love our donks) we looked around and a friend recommended a different farrier, who is not Amish. He came out, she was lying down, refused to get up. He took a brief look at her feet, informed her that she wasn’t anywhere near dying yet and that she was going to get up so he could fix her, and with that, she stood up. He then took off at least 1/3, maybe half her hoof. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.

    As he did it, he explained what was wrong. The Amish guy wasn’t trimming off enough hoof and he wasn’t trimming it at the right angle. As a result, she was walking on her heels , so to speak, and her hooves were not wearing down naturally. They were just growing out straight in front because there was no pressure on them. This was causing her enormous pain in the ligaments in her legs. There was zero “foot rot.”

    We gave her some Banamine for a couple of days and it took about a week for her to start moving around normally, but she was massively improved in 24 hours.

    The new guy said they probably wouldn’t need trimming but about four times a year if it’s done right and anything more often than that means it’s being done wrong. He also put both of the donkeys on a very strict diet of zero grain. (They are fat. They get fat on hay and grass.) He said more donkeys die from doing nothing in a field all day and then eating the cattle’s grain than anything else, and that it wouldn’t hurt them one bit if we got out there every now and then and sort of chased them around and made them run.

    I asked him why this Amish guy, who raises and trains horses for people, as well as doing farrier work, would be so damned dumb. I was livid and kept swearing the whole time he was there. Part of it was just massive relief because we were so sure that she would die. I was really angry. I wanted Dave to take me down to that Amish guy’s house so I could tell him off, but he declined. Anyway, the new guy said that the Amish people he knows simply don’t take care of their animals. They just don’t care. They don’t see them as mattering. If the horse or donkey or cow gets sick, or injured, well, so what. They just let them die and get another one.

    No more Amishmen on this farm, ever, for anything.

    It was really cool though. The new farrier told us his name and we said, “Oh, do you know so-and-so (same last name)? He’s our electrician.” He smiled and said, “He’s my son.” We were just thrilled because the electrician guy is top notch, so now we’ve hired the whole family.


  52. The problem with marking any particular self-identified Christian denomination as non-Christian is that we don’t actually have a foundational document. We have accounts of Jesus’ ministry and teaching, but Jesus didn’t lay out a creed. The oldest foundational documents in continuous wide use are the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds, both dating to the late 4th century AD. Using them, and applying a lot of analytical theology, it’s possible to identify the Latter-Day Saints, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Christian Scientists as not doctrinally Christian. The problem–and this is the conclusion drawn by the person who wrote an entire book about exactly this–is that “Christian” is a heavily loaded term. If you say “not Christian,” people hear “not good, not okay, not trustworthy, not welcome, not safe.” So it’s best to look at fruits, not doctrine. In other words, we can’t call self-professed Christians un-Christian, but we can say that they’re doing a terrible job at it.

    Which brings us back to Nicole “Stones and Serpents” and Joe “Millstones” Naugler.


  53. @Jeannie: I enjoy reading your comments. I am one of those folks who attended public school and did VERY well in reading, writing, biological science, history etc – anything that didn’t involve math. Had I been a student today, I would have received resource help in math.
    I sat for the ACT about four years ago because I wanted to take college courses. It took a long time to get to this decision. When I was a junior in high school, my guidance counselor actually told me I wasn’t smart enough to go to college. I scored really well in the reading and writing. My science was average and my math was dismal. Overall though, I was average. Not bad considering it has been almost 30 years since I had graduated from high school. I laughed when I took the ACT because I was old enough to be everyone’s mother or grandmother.
    I am taking at least one course every semester and working towards my degree. I LOVE college work. I may be in my 70s when I graduate but I will graduate!
    And to Nicole…..see, even almost 3 decades after an evil, public school education, opportunities still exist for me. Your children will never have that.
    @Jeannie – I don’t agree about the hope the kids will stay with Nicole and Joe. They have had their chance. They have had years to try to learn to be good parents. They have had 18 months to get their shit together with CPS. I really and truly hope the children are taken away from them for good. I completely understand the trauma of that but in the long run, I also understand that eventually they will understand how dysfunctional their formal lives were. Just clean clothes, a warm bed, proper nutrition, an education, socializing with peers, no screaming and walking on egg shells etc. I have seen first hand the incredible strides that very damaged children have made in foster care. They walk through my school door every day. Nicole and Joe don’t deserve their kids. And I hope CPS is there to take the new babe before it even draws the first breath.


  54. “But Mormonism is a cult, not Christianity”

    Mormonism is half “Book of Mormon” made up crap about Jesus in North America. And half “Bible” stuff….which is ALSO arguably…made up crap about Jesus….but comes from a MUCH older book…of (arguably) made up crap.

    It could be argued that Mormonism is a very young religion. It was founded in the 1830’s. But hey, they’ve been around longer than the Jehovah’s Witnesses…who got their start in Pennsylvania in the 1870’s. The Amish have them beat by a few years. They got their start in Switzerland in the 1690’s.

    Mormons are into Jesus. By definition, that’s Christianity. Catholics are into Jesus. That’s Christianity, too. So are Evangelicals (who generally have more traditional *backward* social ideas) and Mainline Protestants (who generally have more progressive social ideas)…they’re all Christians. The Amish, the Jehovah’s, the Seventh Day Adventists….all Christian.

    From the gay churches in San Francisco to the snake dancing Pentecostals in Appalachia ….the Jesus Club is a big pool with plenty of flavors to choose from. Hell…go to Haiti, and you can see people who simultaneously believe in both Jesus and Voodoo. They’re Christians, too. Try Mexican Christianity….or weird assed Japanese Christianity (which has a little Buddhism thrown in for good measure) Try Central African Christianity and get a free female genital mutilation. Even the Unitarians have Christian members.

    In total, about 70% of people think they’re Christians in the United States. Worldwide, about 31% of the people on the planet claim to be some flavor of Christian. It’s a very eclectic group! Lots of options and custom fits. Take your pick.

    Now here’s something else that might kinda curl your toes about Jesus. There’s ANOTHER religion he figures into very prominently! Though he is not regarded as God incarnate, Jesus is regarded by this religion as…

    1. A messenger of God who was born to a virgin named Mary
    2. A prophet who was without sin
    3. Someone who performed miracles
    4. Someone who ascended into heaven to be with God
    5. A prophet who will return to Earth near the Day of Judgment to restore justice

    Guess which religion thinks all this stuff about Jesus? Any guesses?
    Islam:) Yep, your neighborhood Muslims consider Jesus a prophet in their religion.

    There’s a bunch of stuff about Jesus in the Quran, but few Americans seem to know anything about this. I wish Americans were more global thinkers like Europeans. We’re kinda stuck in a bubble over here of our own egocentricity. I wish we were a better educated country, too.

    The interesting shit you learn in a World Religions class is pretty eye opening. All the holy books are shockingly similar. From the Bible to the Quran to the Dhammapada to the Talmud to the Tao Te Ching, The legends are chuck full of parallels and similar advice. The OLD Pagan religions unmistakably laid the foundation for the newer religions like Christianity. It’s all a great big weird bunch of guesses about the meaning of life and some helpful hints how to live. And they swap bits and pieces with each other ALL THE TIME.

    You read all the major holy texts, and you kinda sit back and go….Well, I’ll be damned! It’s a nice feeling, really. People are unmistakably interconnected.

    My biggest take-away from studying world religions…is that people want to think they are different and special, but they are very much the same. Same positive qualities, same negative qualities.

    Most important rule that is expressed by literally every religion….is to treat others like you’d like to be treated.

    It’s a pretty good message.


  55. it’s possible to identify the Latter-Day Saints, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Christian Scientists as not doctrinally Christian.

    And I assure you that fundamentalist/evangelical Christians don’t think that anyone else, and I mean nobody else, is actually Christian but them. Our Fundy Church From Hell was so bad about this that they believed a good portion of their own congregation wasn’t really “saved.” And of course, when we left, that was “proof” that we weren’t. 🙂


  56. I am taking at least one course every semester and working towards my degree. I LOVE college work. I may be in my 70s when I graduate but I will graduate!

    Peg, I did the same thing. It took me about ten years to graduate, because I took off a spell. I finally finished it because the university informed me that if I didn’t graduate by X date, a couple of my science credits would be considered out of date and I’d have to do them over again, so I got myself in gear and got it done.

    I loved it. I wanted to go on and get a master’s degree, but damn, the tuition is really a lot. So instead, I discovered MOOCs. (Massive Online Open Courses). They are usually free.


  57. @ Blessed Little Blogger
    if you paid the farrier to care for your donkey & the donkey was left with painful feet, then that is theft. Theft of services and theft by needing frequent care? I could tell stories all day about their attempts to get money or services. They may call themselves a religion but I see too many things that turn my stomach. I hope your donkey is happy & I am sure loved very much.


  58. I doubt he did it intentionally. He just trimmed them the way he thought he ought to, the way his father taught him and his grandfather taught his father. Because the Amish have a reputation for being terribly agrarian, they tend to think they already know everything about farming. They clearly do not.

    He also was trimming one of Frances’ back hooves. She mostly keeps her ground down just by walking around, but that one back hoof grows oddly. The new farrier fixed her right up. The difference was simply astonishing. I bet we don’t have to have it trimmed more than twice a year from now on.

    And the fee is identical. Furthermore, we can call the guy on the phone because he has a phone. And he comes out on his own because he has a truck.

    Our donkeys are a fixture here. They were the first livestock we acquired after moving here and they look at everyone else with disdain. They grudgingly tolerate Frances because she comes in a close second in residency, but they openly despise the calves. 🙂


  59. I was raised Evangelical Lutheran and currently teach Sunday school in an Episcopal congregation, so believe me, I have been consigned to Hell by a good many Real True Christians (as blogger Fred Clark sarcastically calls them–he was raised in that milieu). There is so much angst about being saved and soul winning and having a good testimony and dispensations and on and on and on that is utterly alien to our tradition. We are a bunch of Hellbound worldly lukewarm this and thats because we (gasp shock) read our Bibles with an eye toward context and (shiver pearlclutch) practice works righteousness. Like, feeding people. And providing clothing. And housing. And other stuff like that that Jesus nope nuh uh never no way explicitly told everybody to do. Because dispensations. Or something.

    And do not even get me started on the End of the World Checklist.


  60. So, does anyone have any idea why the family court didn’t take Alex’s testimony a little more seriosly? I feel as if the system failed the kids. Nicole lies when she says all the kids have lived in a house. The youngest one was born in a garden shed. Why the family court felt this was acceptable housing amazes me..


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