A Funeral

This is not going to be about what you think it’s going to be about.

However, please read it anyway.

Many years ago, when we were still Christian and attending the Fundy Church From Hell, there was a large family with a new baby.  If I remember correctly, the new baby was number nine, and I thought that was a massive number of children.

He was a little boy.

He died from SIDS when he was just a few weeks old.

It was tragic and awful and sad and horrible.

We went over to their house, I remember, and they had the baby there in the little casket that his father had made for him from a tool box.

That sounds awful and it was repeated around town and sounded even more awful the more it was repeated, but the reality wasn’t awful at all. It was actually quite beautiful.  He had sanded it, spray painted it, and then padded the interior and lined it with velvet.

We met at their house for the funeral because nobody knew where the cemetery was. We went in a motorcade, but informally, not one of those formal funeral home things.

My nephew helped dig the grave. He was already there when we arrived, sweaty and dirty from digging.

We all stood around the grave site.  The child’s father spoke, and I think maybe a couple of other men did. I can’t remember now, and certainly don’t remember what was said, although I know it included the requisite religious stuff.

But I remember how I felt.

It felt right.

It felt like love.

All the people who were there were people who wanted to be there. Nobody was paid to do anything. There were no somber-looking guys in black suits driving black limos. There was no smarmy preacher who’d been paid to say nice things.

Instead there was my nephew with his dirty jeans and his shovel.

We all cried, and we all laughed, and we were all friends supporting our friends in their sorrow.

Over the years, I have found myself defending that family’s choice more than once. There is nothing at all that I would agree with them about now when it comes to our worldview. I would not make a good dinner companion for any of them.

But on that day, at that time, we were friends and I was there for that reason alone.

And it all stayed with me, so much so that when our son died, that experience came flooding back to me. Dave already didn’t want to have a formal funeral, and certainly Nathan’s friends didn’t want one, so it wasn’t like I had to convince anyone.  But that little baby’s funeral was so lovely and loving and memorable that I couldn’t help make the comparison.

We chose to have memorial celebrations instead of a funeral. We had them (more than one in three different cities in two states, a total of four) in bars, because that’s where Nate played and worked.  Burial was not an issue because he was cremated and we put his ashes everywhere you can imagine, including both the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean.

That doesn’t mean that a formal funeral is wrong or bad or not a good choice.  It just means that doing it differently is not any of those things either.

And before I get asked the question I’ve been asked about eleventy-million times today, “Is that legal?” (to have a home burial), the answer is yes, it is.




64 thoughts on “A Funeral”

  1. It’s legal and it’s right. I come from a (thought) land where this is normal and I have attended or visited the back yard graves of many a little one who didn’t grace this world for long.

    My sister’s stillborn was buried by her family in a little space above our grand mother in a public cemetery.

    If the N’s did one thing right in all of this, they let their children bury little W with love and respect in a place where they can honour him.


  2. So sad. Just so terribly sad.

    When I was 34 weeks pregnant with my first, an ultrasound revealed that my placenta was calcifying quicker than it should (they have a rated placenta class). My OB sent me to a perinatalogist who did a full blood panel and an indepth ultrasound. He explained, that the calcifications are what normally happen as the placenta ages, and ultimately what usually instigates labor. The placenta stops being able to fully support the baby = body goes into labor to deliver baby.

    Anyway, from that point on, I had to have fetal NST each week to make sure that the baby was still receiving what he needed from my placenta to justify continuing to carry him. If at any time the baby would have shown signs of distress, I would have been immediately induced. I made it to 40 weeks, 6 days with a NST every day of those last 6 days.

    I don’t know if Nicole’s circumstances were similar, but they sound like they were. That makes this an even bigger tragedy. Yes, the death was sudden. However, the placenta calcification and deterioration, or advancing placental age, is not sudden. It’s exactly the reason why women are seen by their care providers every week in the last month of pregnancy. It is why doctors don’t advocate extending past 40 weeks without monitoring because the rate of stillbirth increases dramatically.

    This is a terrible loss, but probably a preventable one. Tragic.


  3. I don’t agree with that family one anything. Nothing. I do however feel very bad for them right now. I can’t imagine their pain.


  4. Devastatingly sad. I’ve had a bad feeling about her pregnancy the past few weeks, I had a feeling something terrible was going to happen. Tragic.


  5. My thoughts are with the Naugler’s today. The loss of a child is nothing I have ever experienced, except for a miscarriage, and I can’t even fathom the pain.

    I have only been to the funeral of one child before. It was 9 years ago. The child was a friend of my youngest son’s. They had been classmates in their special needs preschool and then went on to be classmates in their kindergarten and first grade class. She died unexpectedly in her sleep, she was 6. I didn’t want to go to the funeral. It was held in the mortuary where the viewing was. But we went because this little girl s didn’t have a whole lot of friends. Sadly it sometimes comes with the territory of being a special needs kid.

    We went because it was the right thing to do. I tried to explain to my son about the viewing but he was so young. I didn’t know how to prepare him. He said his goodbyes to her. Then went and hugged her mom and dad. And then he ran off to play with her brothers. They played until it was time for the service. I worried so much that they were playing and it was her grandfather that thanked me for bringing him. And for letting him be a child and for letting her brothers know that it was okay to still be a kid.

    That day still sticks with me. Her family was surrounded by loving support, neighbors, family, teachers, friends.

    I can only wish that the Naugler’s reach of for support in this time of need.

    Sally, thank you for sharing your stories of Nathan with us. For letting us into your life, even at the times that are probably the most difficult to remember. Much love to you.


  6. LDS funerals are a little different. There are no paid preachers and we wash and dress our love ones. The services are usually held in the ward that the person attended. After the memorial service at the ward building there is usually a meal prepared by the relief society for the family and however many people they want to attend. The family gets to decide what is served. All left over food is packed and brought to the grieving family. The ward family will usually do meals daily for the family for however long they need meals. One young father of ten lost his wife from breast cancer when she was only 37. We all banded together helping for over a year. A good friend of mine died two hours after giving birth to her second child (also from cancer). She was able to hold her baby boy and say goodbye to him. We all pitched in to pay for his mother to come stay with him and helped with the toddler and the new baby. Lucky both those men have remarried.
    In my own family my uncle passed away. My husband built his coffin and we lined it with a beautiful comforter. We dressed him and drove him in our beat up suburban over 300 miles to our cabin to be buried at our family cemetery. We had to get a permit to transfer a dead body in our car. He actually spent the night in our driveway.
    It was a beautiful service.

    I was surprised that Nicole allowed a blessing. I thought she was against the church & had her name removed from the roll. If she is still a member the ward will take care of the whole family, however or whatever help they request. Meals, comfort and yes money and groceries and any type of care will be given. I am positive that the RS presidency is directly involved and giving any assistance requested. The RS and Bishopic have very heavy jobs and they aren’t paid a penny.


  7. This is a terrible loss, but probably a preventable one.

    There is no way to know that for sure. I consulted a professional about this and asked her opinion. She said that given what we know, which isn’t much, it’s impossible to know if prenatal care would have prevented the tragedy. However, it would not have hurt and might have helped (her words).

    There is no question at all that a woman over 40 pregnant with her 12th child (and pregnant for more times that that, because she’s had at least one miscarriage) would have been considered very high risk and would have been watched very closely and induced if there was the slightest threat of anything being wrong.

    The big take-away here is this. “I trust my body” simply doesn’t work. There was no warning that Nicole felt or knew. Nothing. By the time her body told her something was wrong, it was already way too late and almost fatal for her as well.

    Don’t ever listen to anyone who tells you to “trust your body.”


  8. Thank you, Sally. Right now is now a time for anyone to be picking on another mother who has joined the club no one wants to be a part of, and no one should pick apart how they had the funeral. William’s brothers made something they probably never even thought about having to make. They did something probably none of them had considered. And a mother couldn’t be there, but can be close when she’s able to get out of the hospital. Doing something simple that is made out of love is much more beautiful than doing something big and fancy that doesn’t need too much thought. Tool box converted, hand-made coffin, big fancy expensive casket, on someone’s property, in a cemetery, cremation…none is wrong, especially when it’s done from a place of love and trying to cope.


  9. I agree that a nontraditional service can be perfect. I must take slight issue with your burial statement. In some states (mine being one of them) it is illegal to bury human remains outside of a cemetery.


  10. Did you talk about this before? I seem to remember hearing this story before.

    Even if we do not agree, most of us can have empathy toward someone who is or who has suffered tragedy. I will just leave it at that and extend the Nauglers’ my sympathies for their loss.


  11. I do not know how I would act if anyone every mocked a deceased member of my family. I think I would wish all terrible things on them and that I would never be able to forgive them. That being said, I feel terrible for the N’s over the loss of their baby. And I am humbled that several people to whom N was the most vile are able to offer her a measure of compassion. Peace to everyone who is missing someone tonight.


  12. DIC is a medical emergency, and a known complication of pre-eclampsia when left untreated (common cause of it in pregnancy). DIC does not *just happen randomly* without a cause. While my heart goes out to the whole family, as a medical professional with experience in maternal-child medicine, I cannot help but to think that this could have been prevented if proper prenatal care had been given.


  13. Did you talk about this before? I seem to remember hearing this story before.

    Probably. I’m old and can’t remember what I wrote about. 🙂


  14. I must take slight issue with your burial statement.

    1. This is Kentucky. It’s legal here.
    2. The child was still born. There are often different rules about still births.


  15. I had a death in my own extended family today, so am probably not quite as coherent as I’d like to be right now…my own family’s loss of a member is sad, but not tragic, given the specific circumstances (no additional info needed here). It’s not like what the Nauglers are undergoing.

    The loss of a newborn – of any child, really, whether that child was first or twelfth in birth order, is a tragedy, and the Naugler family has my entire sympathy. I wish Nicole well and am thankful she is getting good, compassionate treatment in the hospital, and hope that Joe and the children will manage things smoothly while she’s away. I am glad they have the new “cabin”, and expect getting it improved will be a very good project for them, especially now. Perhaps they’ll accept the assistance of their eldest son’s mother and father-out-law during this sad and demanding time.

    I am also glad the family was able to lay their little one to rest as they chose. I have not been emotionally able to look at any of Nicole’s Facebook or blogs today, so don’t know the details, but it sounds as if the children were very active participants.

    Just…very saddened by this outcome.

    Sleep tight, little boy…


  16. It is noones place to say how anyone should bury their child. We didn’t have a preacher we just played songs that meant something to us and our son picked the toy story “you got a friend in me” and a slideshow of his photos. Husbands family bitched because we didn’t have a preacher; ya a baby’s funeral is totally the place to damn people to hellfire and brim stone. They had an opinion that we had him cremated. Point blank that was our baby and our decisions to make. When people lose their child then they can have an opinion on how they want their child to be remembered


  17. It is noones place to say how anyone should bury their child.

    I don’t think anyone has done that.


  18. I am a lloonnggg time lurker..

    having suffered from a stillbirth myself I know this is a pain no one deserves.. no one. mothers just are not equipped to deal with this kind of loss. I can only imagine the questions and guilt Nicole is laying on herself.. it is a devastating tragedy and my heart hurts for her.

    The only thing that bothers me is I can only imagine if the situation was reversed what she would have to say. It’s actually been nice to see most of the “troll” side has the decency to be better than that.


  19. Fuck man. I saw your opening line, knew in my gut what it was referencing, and confirmed it on their Facebook page/website. I’m so angry and so heartbroken for that poor baby and those poor kids. But fuck those parents and their decisions that did NOTHING to attempt to prevent this. I hate them so much, and I hate that they’re likely to put their remaining kids through more, unnecessary heartbreak through their choices.



    They’re all so busy patting themselves on the back for their oh-so-moral high ground. Couldn’t even wait 1 fucking day before making this tragic event ALL ABOUT THEM.

    You FJ basement dwellers are disgusting and transparent as fuck.


  21. “Dear son, we’ve been waiting for you
    Thrilled beside ourselves that you’ve arrived
    White coats came in, heads held low
    Talked for a bit, shuffled outside

    We closed the curtains
    And held each other
    And cried
    We said hello
    At the same time
    That we said goodbye

    And smallest and wingless
    Leaving as soon as you’d arrived
    But sadness is just love wasted
    With no little heart to place it inside

    We closed the curtains
    And held each other
    And cried
    We said hello
    At the same time
    That we said goodbye”


    Your post was beautiful.

    So much more I wish I knew how to put into words, but they fail me. Nicole has joined the club that we never want to welcome new members into. And I thought of you, when I heard the news that the baby had died. Because I knew you would know what Nicole was facing now.

    (I think I had a premonition, I found myself listening to the Breckenridge emergency scanner for 3 hours Friday night. I just kept thinking, she’s been pregnant too long, the baby is post-mature.)

    I’m so sad for them, wish she had received pre-natal care. But my wishing won’t change a thing.


  22. I don’t feel an ounce of compassion towards Joe or Nicole. And honestly, I don’t think they are feeling a whole lot of grief either. Call me a bitch, but I am not going to pretend that I feel sorry for them. I am not a good pretender. What I say, I mean. I have avoided the occasional funeral because the thought of listening to people sing the praises of the deceased, who was a horrible person when they were alive, was just too much.
    That babe would have endured years of misery and neglect. Why would we celebrate that?
    I do have empathy for the children who spent a night alone, digging a grave and building a casket. That was Joe’s job. Plain and simple.
    Nicole started posting her stupid shit on her personal page 5 hrs after giving birth to a dead baby. She is a heartless cunt.


  23. Just a clarification for those who post on Free Jinger and whomever. If you don’t want to post this Sally I will understand, but damn, some people are hypocritical assholes.

    First I don’t think of FJ as a hive, there are some smart posters whom I respect and there are some dumb bitches.

    My comments on my friend’s page were not directed at the Nauglers. This is their grief. Theirs alone. It is a loss I would never wish on anyone.

    That being said I refuse to condem someone whom Nicole has lashed out at in the most heinous ways for lashing back. I wouldn’t do it, but I understand her reasons. People going to her page to give her grief are hypocrites. Where were they when Nicole was bashing her or other people for their lost children or loved ones? Nicole and her proxies delighted in the death of the page administrator’s child, posted photographs from the funeral, attacked her living children and derided her with arrogant statements such as “at least I kept all my children alive.” I stand by my friends. Live with it.

    My comments were simply that I don’t feel there is a “time limit” on when it is okay to bash someone for the loss of their child. That the loss of a child does not heal. Ever. It is forever an open wound. Time does not heal all wounds. Fuck death it sucks. No one should have the pain of outliving their child.

    As to the “children” reading this on Facebook. Well, we pretty much all have children. There are children on both “sides.” No children are any more special than anyone else’s. My sons don’t read this shit. I don’t discuss this bullshit with them. Even when I had to go to court for Nicole’s bogus complaints. I also have never made them an administrator of my page and exposed them to this bullshit. What do you think sets a more damaging example? Someone else being an asshole on Facebook whom one can choose to ignore or watching and listening to your parents be assholes on Facebook? The Naugler parents willingness to involve both their children and other children in their bullshit is to me the most heinous part of all this.

    As to the post on The Nation. Do the dumb bitches have reading comprehension problems, that’s a rhetorical question. Also overactive imaginations. We are not stalking them despite what they claim. No one that I know of knew anything of this until it was publicly posted. It is not fucking stalking to read her public postings. It is not stalking to be a victim’s advocate or to shine the truth on falsehoods being spread.

    Funnily enough here in Kentucky we aren’t the hillbilly gossips some FJ people like to say we are. We have real live professionals and everything. The Nation post was, as was pointed out on FJ, before anyone knew of the tragic events that unfolded. The dumb bitches can reach deep into their imagination and say whatever fancy comes into their heads, and I can tell them they are full of shit.


  24. That was a loving funeral memory and I hope that the Naugler family found some solace when they had theirs. It’s so terribly sad that Nicole lost the baby. A sad time for her family. I do hope that the child who may have been present when it all started going terribly wrong is doing okay. That is terrifying stuff to witness.

    The Jewish and Moslem traditions also spell out how the dead are to be prepared for burial and family may participate if they are the same gender as the deceased.

    It is legal to bury your own dead in Kentucky, but there may be some rules that must be followed. I hope they did so.

    Most bodies are buried in established cemeteries, but burial on private property may be possible in Kentucky. Before conducting a home burial or establishing a family cemetery, check with the county or town clerk for any local zoning laws you must follow. If you bury a body on private land, you should draw a map of the property showing the burial ground and file it with the property deed so the location will be clear to others in the future.


  25. I had a feeling this was going to happen, but I have a feeling it’s still NOT over. What Nicole’s body has experienced is going to take years to recover. Not days. YEARS. She almost died of organ failure! And from we can all see Nicole is overworked. A 41 WEEKS pregnant Grandmother of 12 and she’s going into work? Joe is a failure as a husband/human being. All that time he spends online could have been spent at a little part-time job to save money to give his wife a break during those last few weeks before birth. Or at the very least he could have made an effort to not use Nicole’s hard-earned money on recreational drugs (He says on a podcast that he uses.) I hope Joe reconsiders how he treats Nicole/money-maker. Even if Nicole leaves the hospital soon, she’s not going to be the same for a very LONG time. She will need lots of bed rest, real food and lots of time away from the internet. The mind and the body are one.


  26. Grief is painful, and unique to select species.

    You know, my boyfriend is in his residency training, currently working in ob and gyn right now. He tells me that carrying such a high-risk pregnancy to term, without any prenatal care, can be akin to medical neglect. Apparently, in a high-risk pregnancy, levels of amniotic fluid are tested regularly, and then weekly or daily, when the due-date approaches – it’s a standard of prenatal care – changes in placental calcification are also monitored. Changes of placental caclification before 32 weeks are associated with a higher risk pregnancies, placental abruption, and stillbirth. Regardless of what stage calcification changes, these changes need to be monitored via ultrasound to identify risks.
    …Those Doctors took an oath, and they want the Nauglers to be healthy, they want their babies to be healthy – they will do whatever they can to help any woman through a high-risk pregnancy. So I should hope they seek prenatal care next time – there is nothing to be afraid of.

    Alternatively, if they refuse prenatal care, I hope they consider birth-control. Because the reality checks will only get bleaker. And if Joe was scared this time, he sure as well will be even more scared, if or when his wife loses her life in another high-risk pregnancy, leaving her 11 children without a competent provider.

    But Jesus Christ, very soon after Joe Naugler and “Charles Smith” Naugler taunt Sally publicly, about her dead son…their own son passes. Wow. I cannot help but wonder if they wont rethink such blasphemy, when their fingers hit the keyboards again…?


  27. That being said I refuse to condemn someone whom Nicole has lashed out at in the most heinous ways for lashing back. I wouldn’t do it, but I understand her reasons.

    I understand her reasons as well. Nor would I condemn her for it.

    FJ can fuck off.


  28. “I asked if they could have detected this prior they said it was possible but with all other indicators, I was otherwise healthy.”

    Now, this is just my opinion, after hearing what the bf had to say. (Dont worry, Ill keep the Naugler-talk level low with him, lest he not be my boyfriend for very much longer, haha.) …The answer, “it was possible”, translates to, yes, when “all other indicators” point to a high-risk pregnancy. In a high-risk pregnancy, they monitor for such problems as low amniotic fluid and calcification… And to think, just days prior, Nicole and “Charles Smith” Naugler were joking about the care of Doctors, induction, and prenatal care.

    I will admit, I got teary-eyed, reading Nicole’s blog post. How devastating, for the infant’s siblings, to show up at the hospital, after a long drive, only to be met with utter disappointment.


  29. I reread her blog post today. I’m extremely upset about the siblings. I am only using the truth that Nicole has posted. She says they didn’t know before coming to the hospital, that means they were not prepared. Who the fuck does that? Joe has proved time and time again what a worthless father he is. He won’t take the time to prepare his children for a horrendous shock, he won’t take the time to dig a grave for his own child. He expects his children to even do that. He stays with Nicole while the children mourn alone.

    I do have sympathy but only because my brain thinks that Nicole and Joe are like the rest of us, but are they really? Would any of us have our children come to the hospital to see their sibling and then surprise them with the fact he died? Or would we gather them around at home, on private and share the devastating news there? I know, I know, Joe had to be there with Nicole. Just like Nicole and Joe had to be in a hotel while their animals starved to death on the shitstead.

    Sorry, not sorry, my sympathies are with the kids. I hope the church is bringing them food so they can get a break from meal prep in this time of sadness.


  30. There’s a lot of things I’ll judge the Naugler’s for, but their choice of funeral/burial for their child is not one of them. People grieve in their own ways and don’t deserve to be criticized because they’re not doing it how someone else thinks it should be done.


  31. She made choices and belligerently publicly voiced them daily despite and often to spite, the scientific community. It was this same group of people she called and then relied upon to save her life in this very dire emergency. I bet the police were involved also. I am unsurprised by this outcome.
    RIP little William. I am saddened by your parents lack of prenatal care.
    Very sorry for the suffering brothers and sisters, but take care children, watch and learn.


  32. Nicole describes doctors hypothesizing that the baby died of a developmental issue, which she rejects.

    And of course, we’ll never know.

    One thing that did stand out to me, were the deformities of the baby’s right ear in the photos. Ear deformities at birth are often (though certainly not always) correlated with congenital renal defects in particular, and other congenital syndromes common in the infants of older mothers.

    Nicole describes that the doctors did an ultrasound trying to establish the baby’s mortality. It could be that their “developmental issue” suggestion was the result of something seen on that ultrasound.

    Without a post mortem exam, no one will ever know. Had the Naugler’s elected to do standard pre-natal care with untrasounds, they could have been made aware of most congenital issues facing the fetus, and doctors may or may not have been able to affect a better outcome. Again, we’ll never know.

    One thing is certain…the Nauglers are not in a position to care for a medically fragile baby. It would have brought a storm of attention from CPS. Living off-grid for a baby who depends on electronic medical devices might not have been possible. If the baby had died in their care in their chosen conditions, it could have resulted in charges that affected the custody of the other children.

    The Nauglers are insanely lucky that Nicole survived. So lucky. Crazy lucky. If nothing else, I hope Nicole’s narrow survival opens their eyes about the importance of not taking unnecessary risks with themselves or their children.

    I also hope it affects their world view about the importance of government involvement in community services. In Joe and Nicole’s world view, no one is owed any service they can’t pay for. Thank goodness, for Nicole’s sake, society has moved beyond their barbaric outlook and that emergency medical services are available whether or not it’s likely you’ll be able to pay for them.

    Nicole owes her life at this point to being “a whore of the state”. I hope she makes note of that and adjusts her thinking. I can’t say I’m holding my breath.

    And I hope I’m wrong, but I also, sadly, expect to hear about another pregnancy within a year.

    I know my post doesn’t have an extremely sympathetic tone. I do feel sad for their grief and their loss. I particularly feel sad for little O who was left alone with her mother at the shop and will likely suffer PTSD, which of course, the Nauglers will never get her help for. Children are NOT “birth coaches or birth attendants” as Nicole has asserted in the past. They don’t know what to do when things go terribly wrong, and to put them in that position is horrible.

    I do wish the Naugler family healing. I do hope they find comfort and that their grief eases in time. A child’s death is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. Nor would I ever mock it or call it “karma” as it is suspected they did to another woman who lost her baby.

    I hope they never put their family through this again. But I can’t say I’m optimistic about their capacity to learn from history. it’s all so very very sad.


  33. According to Nicole’s account, the baby was born deceased at around 5pm Friday night. She and Joe took turns holding the baby through the night while the children built a coffin and dug a grave. She describes saying goodbye to the baby Saturday morning as Joe takes him home for burial.

    At 7:44 am Nicole posted to her facebook about Kim Davis????? The bigoted county clerk who refused to give same sex couples marriage licenses.

    Was she holding the deceased baby when she did this? Had Joe already taken him away to be buried?

    After her baby’s funeral….at 5PM that evening…24 hours after the baby was born dead….she posted this silly video of a woman battling her son’s peeing outside the toilet and using up all the toilet paper.

    To each their own….I won’t tell anyone how to grieve…and I won’t say she’s heartless.

    But what the actual fuck? To be mindlessly watching those things by yourself at such a time is sad enough….but to be so interested that you publicly repost them? How in the hell could that be a priority?


    Everyone’s different.

    But that’s a bridge too far for me.

    I could not agree more with Peg that the building of the casket and digging of the grave was Joe’s responsibility. To put that on children is just so messed up to me. Then again…to buy pot instead of prenatal ultrasounds is SO MESSED UP in my mind….so what do I know?


  34. We were not meant to outlive our children. I wish there had been a different outcome not only for Nicole’s sake but also for her living children. I hope the world that the Naug parents have created for themselves does not judge her too harshly and that the members of that world give her some time to get her strength back before they do pass judgement. Sometimes, no matter what we do, death happens and no matter how long we live, we try to take it all back and get another chance to say one thing or hold one more time or just touch the hand or cheek. Death is never the end.


  35. I was out most of the weekend and had no idea she lost her child, and for a while i felt geunine sorrow for her and her family. THEN I ended up on her NCN page and saw she was back to her nonsense about the statist govt. the very govt that prob saved her life and kept her feral kids without a mother. Who wants to bet she tries again. Its a game with her, I;ll show you I can do it and crow about it.
    Nicky, it was the statist govt that is going to pick up the tab for you to survive, give you hot meals, a warm bed and you still whine about it. FOr fucks sake,mourn your child for a while, get some rest. put that deadbeat husband out to work. toss those machettes and guns into the scummy pond and say enough is enough, but you wont.


  36. There is no reason to suspect that the baby had any congenital deformities or anomalies. Nicole says that the doctors were afraid that might be the case before she delivered (and I understand why), but that it was not the case. They know how to examine a baby. None of us can examine one from a photo.

    This baby did not die because he had a congenital deformity. He died because the placenta wore out and couldn’t supply him with oxygen and the other nutrients he needed to survive. There is no other reason.


  37. I’m a recent lurker who paid attention because I’m a home schooled allumni and I kinda couldn’t look away. I tried to follow N’s pregnancy kind of close because I was pregnant too, with a July due date.

    My heart breaks for her. She’s an idiot, I cannot support the choices she’s made and obviously will continue to make, but losing a child is a wound nobody deserves. And I’m not going to second guess her choices because…well, it’s moot now. Many babies survive inadequate prenatal care and post dates pregnancy. Hers did not. Monday morning OB-ing won’t fix it.

    What I will say is it made me grateful for the choices I did make. Because ultimately, I could easily have been Nichole, or one of her children. I’ve got the background, I came from that world, my parents were both into it up to their eyeballs. But for whatever reason, I’m not. And I’m not arrogant enough to believe that it’s because I’m more perceptive than she is. I had the right information at the right time, and the right level of support to shake the dangerous nonsense before it became too much of my personality to discard it. If certain events had happened earlier or later, if some of the people I’d met had been a little more manipulative…I’m an idiot too, is what I’m saying. A very lucky one.

    And I’m going to spend the next few weeks thanking God and modern medicine that my daughter got here safe and sound, and neither of us were hurt. We had some scary heart decels and a c-section for failure to advance. I’ve never been so glad for a hospital in my life. Nothing in this world is worth more than my little girl.

    I hope Nichole can wake up someday. That’s the eulogy her son deserves.


  38. I noticed the deformed ear right away. I wonder what caused that?

    The child in the photo is dead. Dead babies look horrible. It’s just a fact. Dead people look pretty bad too. Please don’t do diagnosis from photograph.


  39. I saw a post somewhere else that basically said this was Karma and the OP had been waiting for this for two years. I don’t believe in karma. I do believe in choices and consequences. And while we are free to make our choices, we are not always free to choose our consequences. Like you said, no one can be 100% sure that this was preventable with proper prenatal care. (I look at it like a car accident and seatbelts.) There are many factors that do seem to point that direction, though. There is a reason you start going to the OB every two weeks and then every week at the end. There is a reason they measure you and test your urine at every visit. There is a reason they check your blood pressure and often order late-term ultrasounds. There is a reason they don’t won’t woman to go past 40 weeks without constant testing. Almost 20 years ago, I was induced 3.5 weeks early because of low amniotic fluid. They knew there was a problem because my measurements weren’t normal. That caused them to order ultrasounds and extra visits. I don’t even want to imagine what would have happened to my child I had never gone to the doctor on a regular basis. Death at any age is sad and tragic, and I feel most for those kids who probably will not be able to process this.


  40. Thank you Sally for your beautiful post and follow up comments. I too had a bad premonition about Nicole’s pregnancy. I am thankful that the Nauglers went to the hospital and Nicole’s life was saved. I hope Nicole and family have time to grieve, but since she is the breadwinner I fear she will have to go back to work soon. No matter what I think of Nicole’s life choices, she didn’t deserve to loose her baby. This is not karma.


  41. It looks like Nicole’s own mother found out about this on Nicole’s blog. Here is her comment she left

    Mom July 23, 2017 |
    Oh my God Nicole! I am heartbroken! For my grandbaby, little William, and as your mother, my heart aches so much for you! Moms never want their kids to go thru such heartache. And you have had more than your fair share in this life. My heart aches for Joe, and for each if the children. I love you, and am sending prayers to heaven for you.


  42. As a great-grand multi para I know how the standard prenatal and birth practices go for women like Nicole and I. You are automatically considered high risk when you’ve had a lot of babies. You are automatically considered high risk when you are over 40. Nicole had those two issues alone, we’ll never know if there were others. I had twice weekly NST and a weekly ultrasound with our last baby. I was a mere 36 at the time, but was informed I’d be watched even closer if I had been over 40. That post birth “massage ” to prevent hemmorage is worse than labor and delivery. You are treated like the worst possible scenario can occur, and while it’s annoying it isn’t a bad thing.

    Even putting all that aside; postdate pregnancies are watched like a hawk. An aquaintance from my former parish made it to 42 weeks, but she was practically seen daily. Some placentas start to age earlier than others, without monitoring you have no idea how it is doing.

    I know your consultant doesn’t think we can know definitely if prenatal care would have prevented this. I can say with almost complete assurance from experience it could have. Calcification that leads to abruption isn’t something that happens suddenly. It absolutely would have been caught with the routine monitoring of a great grand multipara, failing that it would have been caught by the routine postdates monitoring.


  43. I know your consultant doesn’t think we can know definitely if prenatal care would have prevented this.

    My consultant didn’t think it was prudent to make blanket statements solely on the basis of Nicole’s blog. 🙂


  44. she didn’t deserve to loose her baby.

    Well, she made choices that put both her and the baby at grave risk. She made those choices. She didn’t have to.


  45. The Nauglers are insanely lucky that Nicole survived. So lucky. Crazy lucky. If nothing else, I hope Nicole’s narrow survival opens their eyes about the importance of not taking unnecessary risks with themselves or their children.

    Naw. That requires introspection. She’ll be pregnant in less than 8 months. I would love to eat those words, but I stand by my statement.

    Too bad she wasn’t being seen by an ob/gyn throughout her pregnancy. At her age and as far along as she may have been, she would been in that office once or twice a week. Calcification would have been noted. Baby may have been saved. $60,000 – $75,000 hospital bill wouldn’t have been incurred for the evil state and statists to pay. Funny how laws have been passed mandating hospitals treat patients regardless of income or insurance and that’s bad – so bad – until Nicole needs their medical expertise.


  46. I cannot help but wonder if they wont rethink such blasphemy, when their fingers hit the keyboards again…?

    Not a chance. I would love to be surprised, but I would stake money on them carrying on as they have for many years now.


  47. Just want to point out that a couple of people on FJ DID crap anyone who had anything negative to say about Nicole. I too was absolutely gutted by their experience. That’s because I can’t help but have empathy. Babies right? Within an hour I started thinking about what Nicole has done to Sally. Then I remembered her bragging that she knows her body and she knows there’s a risk but it’s hers to take. (Just to clarify, people with cluster B disorders have learned to say they know things but they don’t “know” the way the rest of us do. It’s just words) I remembered that she was so so mean when another mother lost her infant. I started feeling like karma sucks and she will never see or admit her own part in this or that she is no different now than the people she hurt.
    The point is FJ is many many people and no one feels exactly the same as the next. Just like any group, some people are wrong and some people just like to be part of the group mentality.


  48. I’ve been asked a couple of questions by somebody who doesn’t want me to post their comment, because they’re afraid of appearing dumb. It’s not dumb not to know something when you’ve never experienced it. I didn’t know how to milk a cow once upon a time.

    Why were the baby’s lips dark? The baby was dead. The baby was oxygen deprived due to a placenta that had stopped functioning properly. Did he “starve”? No. Not enough time for that. Does it mean he couldn’t “breathe”? Yes. He wasn’t getting enough oxygen to his system and he died.

    There is no way for us, knowing what little Nicole has told us, to know if he would have survived had she gone to the doctor earlier. What is absolutely certain is that had she had proper prenatal care, this sort of outcome would have been anticipated and steps taken to prevent it. During prenatal care, especially with high risk pregnancies, amniotic fluid levels are monitored carefully and the blood flow to the placenta and its functioning are also. They would have opted to induce labor or do a C-section if necessary to get that baby out if things started to go south.

    These are not dumb questions.


  49. @No regrets
    I think the folded over ear was caused by positioning in utero and/or during birth. At least one of my kids was born with their one ear folded up, but a bit of massage while nursing and blood flow and it looked normal like the other ear. N’s baby doesn’t have the blood flow/living tissue advantage that other babies have as the quickly recover from birth and have their heads go back to normal shape, etc.


  50. When my water broke with my son, it more or less felt like I had just peed, and the contractions started very strong. I doubled over in pain walking down the steps and told my husband to call the doctor. When at the hospital they tried breaking my water again. Still just felt like I peed myself. That’s when they realized I didn’t have enough amniotic fluid. So they did an ultrasound to see how much was in there, so they knew how much fluid to put back. That day I ended up delivering a healthy 7 lb baby.
    I have some sympathy for them. I just wish she would have had medical care during her pregnancy, but that was her choice.


  51. I’m so sorry for that poor baby and his siblings and parents. It’s not a thing I’d wish on anyone.

    O must have been terrified to witness her mother’s collapse.

    One thing that’s stuck in my mind though, was Nicole posting a bit ago about movements not being the same as they had been, but that the baby was probably just running out of room – it worried me as this is a fallacy. In the UK it’s a focus now and pregnant women are being told that ANY decrease of movement at any stage or any change actually should be checked at the hospital. (This involves being placed on a monitor to check movement and heart rate, a quick ultrasound check followed by a proper ultrasound within 24 hrs. Or at least it is in my part of the UK and is what happened when my 2nd decided to have a lazy day and needed checked.)

    Maybe it was just coincidence, we’ll never know. But it’s something that should ring alarm bells.


  52. One of the contributing factors of what NN had is pre-eclampsia. I always wondered if she had that.
    Has anyone thought of the possibility NN had a hysterectomy? With all the bleeding & clotting issues it made me think that might have happened.


  53. Has anyone thought of the possibility NN had a hysterectomy?

    Nope. She didn’t have surgery. She’s home.


  54. RE: “With all the bleeding & clotting issues it made me think that might have happened.”
    How we do know she is truthful?
    Almost dying woman would not be send 3 day home from a hospital.


  55. Almost dying woman would not be send 3 day home from a hospital.

    Sure she might be. The almost dying part occurred early on. They kept her long enough to be certain that the danger zone had passed. She was racking up enormous bills that she will never, ever be able to pay and they want to minimize how much I have to pay for this fiasco. So they sent her ass home.


  56. If it’s ok with you, don’t publish this.

    “The child in the photo is dead. Dead babies look horrible. It’s just a fact. Dead people look pretty bad too. Please don’t do diagnosis from photograph.”

    Sorry if it seemed I was trying to diagnose from the pic! I had a friend, (actually the child of a homeschool friend, I taught her in a drama class way back when,) but she lost her first son to a type of renal failure, and his ears looked very similar to that photo of Nicole’s baby.

    Ear deformities and low amniotic fluid are signs of several different genetic renal problems, so that’s just the first thing that crossed my mind.

    The dead baby thing. I’ve had one, held one. Son born premature, so he lived for about an hour. It’s been about 23 years ago now. But my amniotic fluid wasn’t low, and he was born alive, so that’s probably a different look than a still birth.


  57. I think she may have asked to go home prior to when the hospital was planning to release her. It seemed like she made a fairly quick transition from ICU to discharge. “I can leave whenever I want to because ‘muh rights’ “.

    I had a feeling she didn’t like the scrutiny of the nurses cramping her online style. Maybe she felt like she couldn’t stayed constantly glued to her phone while the nurses were watching, especially since her phone use seems to be oriented around posting memes and arguing, rather than communicating with friends and family.

    I imagine the caregivers were expecting/hoping Nicole would get some good, restful sleep,to recover her physical and mental health. Nicole had other plans. Co-dependent Joe went along with her wishes, although he probably would have preferred to camp out for a few more days with her at the hospital, enjoying the AC and pontificating to any captive audience staff that had the misfortune to wander into his sights.

    Sorry but I’m having a hard time feeling bad for Nicole or generous in any way towards her because of how her children are suffering and I simply don’t trust a word she says.


  58. I would be willing to bet that the hospital set up some sort of follow up care while dismissing her. If they did, I wonder if she’d keep that appoitment to educate herself, or if she’d go home and google her condition so that she can be as smart as the dr.s and nurses.


  59. I had a feeling she didn’t like the scrutiny of the nurses cramping her online style.

    I cannot imagine that the nurses gave two flying shits about how much or little time she spent online. Really.


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