Crocodiles

Being kind to someone, only to look kind to others, defeats the purpose of being kind.

-Shannon L. Adler

NicolelheartNicole’s “heart is with this family.”  That’s amazing to me. I didn’t know Nicole had a heart.

But notice that it’s a “friend of a friend.” That means it’s somebody she doesn’t know at all.  Her “friends” aren’t actually friends. They’re people who sent her a friend request on Facebook.

And the son died.  Nicole tells us that he “most likely” had PTSD, and “most likely” was “given too many mind-altering pharmaceuticals.”  This is rich, coming from somebody whose husband openly admits he likes pot.

Note: I am all in favor of legalizing pot, but it is, in fact, a mind-altering drug.

But what is worse about this are the crocodile tears for a man who was a soldier, because make no mistake about it, Nicole and Joe Naugler do not like soldiers.  The only sort of human being they hate more than a soldier is a policeman.

militaryiranShe sees all military action as useless.  Look, folks, I am a card-carrying, bleeding-heart liberal.  I don’t like war one little bit.  I am not in favor of the USA serving as the world’s police and arming to the teeth. Trump’s saber-rattling scares the absolute shit out of me.

But all military action is not useless. And comparing Iran to the US is simply ridiculous. It’s also horribly inaccurate, as Iran and Iraq fought a war for more than eight years. It’s true that Iraq was the initial invader of Iran, but these things get really murky in real life, and “he started it” doesn’t work like it does in the sandbox. We can argue all day about who was in the right in the Iraq-Iran conflict.  Neither side was particularly likeable.

The point of her meme though was to disparage the US for carrying out military actions of any type, ever, under any circumstances.
dangerous

It’s more dangerous to be an American citizen going about your day than it is to fight war in the Middle East.

Think about that for a minute. She’s saying that it’s not particularly dangerous to fight a war, because I assure you, it’s not particularly dangerous to be an American citizen “going about your day.”  Yes, completely bad things do happen but I suspect the incidence isn’t any greater than it was years ago. We just have video of it now due to the ubiquitous cell phone.

Stay with the point here, though. She’s playing down the risk that an American soldier faces when he goes into battle.

militaryShe tells Al that he didn’t defend our rights.  It had nothing to do with our rights.  Furthermore, Al is the type of person who would have turned in a Jew.  (Please be aware that Al Wilson is of German descent and had family who went through the horror that was Nazi Germany. This is a massive insult.)

Again, to the larger point.  Soldiers aren’t ever fighting for our rights.  Ever.

So, what are soldiers doing?

killingchildren

Why, they are killing children, that’s what they are doing.  KILLING OTHER PEOPLE’S CHILDREN.

terroristAccording to Nicole, US soldiers are in fact terrorists.

My heart is with this family.

No, it isn’t.

crocodiletears

Runaway

Runaway train never going back
Wrong way on a one way track
Seems like I should be getting somewhere
Somehow I’m neither here nor there

Soul Asylum

From what I can gather, this event occurred in March, 2014. [Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong about that.]

The youngest daughter left home. She was seven years old. She was found walking down the road, at least a mile from the Shithole. A woman picked her up, was concerned about her, brought her home, and something that was said, or something that she saw, just something caused her to make a phone call to the police.

This was Nicole and Joe’s first lengthy encounter with Sheriff Pate. In the recording, they declare repeatedly that they don’t know him, but in one place, Joe clearly says to Nicole that he has, in fact, met Sheriff Pate previously, so who knows.

Nicole recorded all this.  She uploaded it in bits and pieces. These are those bits and pieces, transcribed for you.  In some cases, it’s pretty clear that something has been left out. Whether that is due to editing by Nicole, or whether it was simply due to nothing of interest happening and therefore the phone was cut off to conserve the battery is anyone’s guess.

Recording 1

Scene: Nicole, who is recording, is walking through the woods, or along a path.

Nicole: Hello. We can talk down at the end of the driveway.

Male voice in background, indistinct, probably Sheriff Pate.

Nicole: Hey. No, no, no. (maybe talking to a dog) We can talk down here at the end of the drive [by?] your car, please.

Pate: Okay. I’d like to talk to [name of youngest daughter, hereafter referred to as Daughter].

Nicole: Um, not right now.

Pate: Excuse me?

Nicole: Not right now. Not without my husband here.

Pate: Yeah, I’m gonna go talk to Daughter.

Nicole: Um, not without my husband here.

Pate: Did you hear what I just said?

Nicole: I did hear. I heard you plain and clear.

Pate: She was found down here. I am going to walk up there. . .

End of Recording 1

Recording 2

Scene: We see Sheriff Pate, who is talking on the phone, in mid-conversation. Either Nicole quit recording on that last bit, or there was a big edit, but clearly this is not seamless.

Pate (on phone): (indistinct) . . . we’ve got a right to secure the area, and I think that’s what we will do.

Nicole: They’re gonna secure the area. (It’s unclear who she is talking to, as Pate remains on the phone). That’s lovely.

Pate: It’s your call. . .

Nicole: No, it’s your call. You’re the one that came onto my property. I’m in my yard. You’re not in your yard. I’m in my yard.

Pate: (still on phone) Um, 1073, Tiffany, if you, yeah, you know how, if you turn. . . where will you be coming from? Hardinsburg? If you turn, if you turn. . . (walks away still on phone giving directions)

End of Recording 2

Recording 3

Scene: We see Sheriff Pate with his back to the camera, and a second officer with him. Sheriff Pate paces a little and is looking at his phone.

Second Officer: What’s happening?

Nicole says something to somebody with her, who mumbles a reply.

Sheriff Pate: Can you tell me if there’s any weapons on your property?

Jacob: We have a 22 rifle.

Sheriff Pate: Where is that 22 rifle?

Jacob: Inside.

Second Officer: Do you all homeschool?

Jacob: indistinct but I think he said “Yep.”

Second Officer leans over to pet dog, whereupon Nicole immediately calls dog to her. Pate answers phone.

Jacob: (this is unclear – those are the only words I could distinguish) . . . broken bone or something. . .

The two officers walk away from Nicole. Pate is talking on the phone.

End of Recording 3

Recording 4

Scene: Pate is standing with second officer, talking. I can’t understand what he’s saying.

Nicole: I walked beside you the whole way up.

Pate: But, anyway, here is what we’re gonna do, ma’am. Okay? Here is what we’re going to do. I’m getting ready to call Judge Embry. Now, either way, whether you like it or not, and you’re welcome to turn your recorder back on if you turned it off, we will be talking to her.

Nicole: Okay.

Pate: Whether you like that or not. I am now. . .

Nicole: Under duress.

Pate: Because you have decided to tell me that I couldn’t, I’m getting ready to call one of our judges. I’ve called the Cabinet for Families and Children. You’re stirring up much more than there needed to be. Hold up. I let you talk just a moment ago, okay?

Really, all I wanted to do was pull her to the side and say, “Is everything okay?” without you telling her what you wanted her to say. Basically, you’re leaning down there. . “Is there any problems? Is there this? Do you want them? Do you want. . .?” Well, it’s kind of like when you go in a domestic violence call and the woman comes to the door and says, “Everything’s okay, everything’s okay.” I don’t know what’s behind her, so I’m going to talk to that woman by herself, just as that’s going to happen here.

Now, I think you’re gonna regret going about it this way. I really, really do.

Nicole: Yeah, usually people who stand up for themselves end up regretting it somehow because of retaliation.

Pate: No, I’m not going to try to create. . . no retaliation any way whatsoever.

Second officer: It’s concern for these children.

Pate: He would have never been here. I would have been gone by now.

Nicole: I’m sure you’re very concerned about my children.

Pate: I absolutely am.

Nicole: I’m their mother.

Second officer: She was standing out there in the road, looking like the lost. . .

Nicole: She went for a walk. She was. . . yeah. Like I said, she does that. She likes to go for walks in the woods. We have 28 acres and she just kept on walking.

Pate: Well, I like to check on children who are walking down the road with no parental supervision. And I just check on them. You know, I have children myself. I understand that they wander off. I understand this, that and the other and that’s simply all I want to do.

I have been in a position where I have seen children that walk off that have been severely abused. I’m not saying that that’s the case here in any way whatsoever, but I will not go home to my home tonight, nor will this officer until we find out exactly what the case is.

Now, all you’ve done is opened a big ole’ can of worms. . .

Nicole: No, I just asked you to respect my wishes and speak at the end of the driveway. I would have brought Daughter down there, but you came up here.

Pate: For all I know, somebody’s holding her up there. I’m still going to . . .

Nicole: But you didn’t give me the chance. I actually turned around and told him to go get Daughter.

Pate: I didn’t give you the chance. I don’t give people the chance to hide drugs, or tell people what to say or whatever, when I have a right to be in a place – and I do have a right to be here . . .

Nicole: Yes, because this is not actually my property. It’s the state’s property and I’m just here squatting on it until somebody tells me to leave and tells me what I can and cannot take, my children, you know, my livelihood, my animals, whatever it may be.

Pate: I’m not trying to do anything, ma’am

Nicole: Well, that’s what it ends up usually and I’ve seen far too much of it.

Pate: Not usually, okay.

Nicole: I’ve seen far too much of it. I’ve seen far too much of it.

Pate: I don’t want to leave these guys or girls with a bad impression of the police. . .

Nicole: They’ve already got one, so, (laughs) . . .not gonna change that.

Pate: There are bad apples in every. . .

Nicole: Yeah. We’ve seen. . .

Pate: Don’t compare one person to another.

Nicole: We’ve had more negative instances, or seen more negative instances, I should say,

Pate: If you present yourself the way you did with me to the police, I understand exactly why.

Nicole: Well, I’ve had very few encounters. I’d say that we have watched them on. . .

Pate: Well, if he’s on his way, I guess I’m gonna call Judge Embry.

Second Officer: How many children are here, ma’am? How many do you have?

Child’s voice: Nine.

Second Officer: Nine? What form of support do you have?

Nicole: What form of support? I work and my husband works.

Second Officer: Okay.

Nicole: We have no state government welfare assistance at all. We do not take bribes from the government.

Second Officer: Is your husband not here right now?

Nicole: He’s on his way home. He’ll be here in a moment. He actually had to leave his job for this, so hopefully it doesn’t interfere with, reflect poorly upon him. He’s highly respected at his work, so. . .

Pate: Well, it could have been very easy. . .

Nicole: Well, I asked you in the beginning, I said, that’s the first thing I said to you, why I don’t want this happening without my husband present, and you could have come back tomorrow.

Pate: No. I’m not gonna do that after a child has been walking down the road. For all I know

Nicole: So, it’s a crime for her to walk down the road?

Pate: No. But it’s my obligation. . .

Nicole: But I’m asking you, is it against the law for her to walk down the road?

Pate: Yeah, if I wanted to. . .

Nicole: What law would that be that said that she’s not allowed to walk on the, down the road? What law would that be? Because I’m not familiar with it, but there’s so many books, I mean, stacks and stacks. I’m sure Breckinridge County alone has stacks and stacks of books of laws that you and I will never even hear of, but I’m wondering, do you know if there’s a specific law that forbids her, or that makes me negligent, for her walking down the road. Because she was walking down the road.

Pate: (indistinct) . . . she was picked up by a vehicle, did you know that?

Nicole: I was aware of that. We talked about stranger danger, about getting into cars with people, after she did that.

Pate: Yes, we consider it neglect.

Nicole: But, it could be considered , depending on one’s definition, but is there a strict definition of the law?

Pate: Um. . .

Second Officer: Yeah, pretty much there is.

Pate: Yeah, pretty much there is.

Nicole: Could you cite that for me please?

Second Officer: I can pull the book out.

Nicole: That says she’s not allowed to walk down the road. I’m just wondering. I mean, I understand your concern but I’m wondering why I feel like I’m being persecuted like a criminal because my daughter was. . .

Second Officer: You’re not being persecuted. . .

Pate: We haven’t persecuted you in any way at all.

Nicole: You came onto my property after I asked you to meet you down by the car, we could have talked down there, but you insisted on pushing your way up here, which means you guys are looking for more stuff. Maybe I have some weed growing on the property somewheres, or maybe I have some kind of illegal still or something. I don’t know. Maybe I’ve got, you know, twenty children tied up as sex slaves or something. I don’t know what you guys have in your heads.

Second Officer: I don’t know what you have either.

Pate: When you tell me I’m not welcome on your property and there’s been a little girl out walking around. . .

Nicole: Okay, but when I tell you. . . am I welcome on your property? Can I just walk into your property? Can I just go onto your yard? Can I just go into your house?

Second Officer: When you go up to the front door and knock, yes.

Nicole: My front door happens to be down there. My property ends down there. My property line is down there. You have come into my space.

Second Officer: We have a right to proceed onto any. . . You’ve done told us it ain’t your property, so what are you . . .

Nicole: I was saying that sarcastically. I didn’t. . . mean the state owns it, I don’t. No one ever owns their property. The government owns your property, and they cease it whenever they see fit.

Second Officer: Oh, okay.

Nicole: But yes, this is my property. Whether I be owning or renting, it’s still my property.

Second Officer: We have the right to come to your front door and knock, on any issue.

Nicole: Well, I met you down there.

Pate: I’m proceeding with an abundance of caution at this time. I really feel that I have the right to go right in your house now. . .

Nicole: I’m sure you do.

Pate: You don’t think I do? Well, I feel that I have that right under what we call “exigent circumstances,” meaning that I have. . .

Nicole: Mmmm, meaning that anything anybody does, especially if they stand up for themselves, cause, gives them probable cause. I understand that. I’m fully aware of that. I’m fully aware of those circumstances.

End of Recording 5

Recording 6

Scene: Pate and Second Officer are seen, with Pate again on his phone.

Pate: . . . (indistinct) the little girl walking down the road. . . turn your portable off, please. Well, I bet that still won’t do it. Breck County, can you copy now?

Nicole: (talking to goat) They don’t have food for you, Fiona.

Pate: Breck County, can you copy? I’m going to turn this other vehicle repeater off and . . .

Nicole: Get down.

Pate: Again, I don’t know what experiences you all have had, good or bad or in-between, but it’s nothing. . .

Nicole: I just like my property respected.

Pate: I will tell you this. I was on my way home when this call came out. I’ve got a responsibility. I can just say, “Okay, I don’t care if this kid was walking down the road. That doesn’t bother me. . .”

Nicole: No, I understand your concern, but what I don’t understand is why you wouldn’t respect me and my property.

Pate: I would have been, I would have been out of here a long time ago . . .

Nicole: If you would have let me speak to you at the car, I would have brought Daughter down. You didn’t even give me the opportunity. You insisted on coming up here.

Pate: Ma’am, you have to understand. . .

Nicole: You have to understand. . .

Pate: I have to protect young people too. I have an obligation . . .

Nicole: But you know what? The protection part of the law is so minimal that’s not usually what we see. . .

Pate: You know the last little boy that they wouldn’t let us in the house, he was chained in a closet with his own feces rubbed in his face. And had I not gone the extra mile, I don’t think that little boy would have been living.

Nicole: That’s less likely to be the case, especially when I said I. . .

Pate: I can’t take that risk.

Nicole: I had sent them up there to go get Daughter and bring her down. They told me they wanted to speak to Daughter.

Pate: You know, when people don’t want you up there, there’s something they are hiding.

Nicole: No, I just want people to respect my property. I’m not hiding anything at all. I don’t hide things because I’m hiding things, because I want my privacy respected.

Pate: Does he carry any weapons?

Nicole: Does not.

Jacob: The only weapon we have is the one I told you about.

Pate: Okay, and what is your father’s name?

Nicole: His name is Joseph. He’ll be here in a moment and you can speak to him about anything else you need to know.

Child: He’s right there.

Jacob: He don’t look too happy.

Nicole: (laughs) Well, he’s probably not. He had to leave work.

Jacob: (very low) well, he’s in trouble [Brother’s name], get inside.

Child: Dad’s home.

Nicole: Daughter (indistinct). . . [Child’s name], get inside.

Jacob: [Brother’s name], get inside before you get in trouble.

Nicole: [Child’s name], get inside please. Thank you. Unless you wanna come out here and start talking to the police officer. You have something to say? Are you gonna go inside? Or do you want to come talk? Just wanna be nosy?

End of Recording 6

Recording 7

Scene: Joe appears to be coming up the path, Pate meets him. They are away from microphone range except for some indistinct talking. One of the kids walks into and out of camera view.

Pate: (speaking to Joe) Here is the situation, and here’s where we’re at at this point.

Joe: I want everybody out of here right now. (talking to kids)

Pate: We got at least one call, maybe a couple of calls, that your daughter was walking down the road, blah, blah, blah.

Joe: I hear you. Yeah.

Pate: The lady said she looked to be seven or eight but she was a very cute little girl and acted as if she was scared. Okay, uh, she actually picked her up and dropped her off up here. So I come driving down this road where I think this little girl might be walking, don’t find her and realize that probably this is where. .. my unmarked white car where you see it.

I was met down there by I guess your two oldest boys at the car, very nice, polite, and told me that Daughter is at the house. . .

Joe: (sharply) Daughter, come here! Come here please.

Pate: Actually I sat there for a moment and they said that their mother would like to talk to you, so they come trucking back up here and I’m thinking, you know, I better go check this out a little further. I don’t know what’s up here, you know. I was met with a lot of resistance from your wife, in that “I don’t want you on my property”. . .

Nicole: I respectfully. . .

Pate puts up his hand to shut her up

Joe: (apparently to Nicole) Please. . .

Nicole: Thank you.

Pate: (resumes). . . “I don’t want you on my property,” “It’s the state’s property,” um, “you can’t come here without an arrest warrant,” actually, to the point that criminal charges actually could be filed against her.

Nicole: (to child) Take him. Everybody sit behind me.

Pate: Here’s where we’re at at this point. I have an obligation, you know, she will let me talk to Daughter through her, but basically all I wanted to do and what I feel that I have a responsibility and an obligation to do is pull her to the side. . .

Joe: (motions) Come here.

Daughter appears in camera.

Pate: . . without her saying “this, this, and this” tell him “this, this, and this.” Uh, I don’t expect , uh, ones this age (he reaches out and pats Daughter on her head). . .

Joe: (walks toward Daughter and puts his hand on her head) Let me go ahead and just tell you where we come from. We homeschool. We homebirth. So we get a lot of resistance from society. We get a lot of resistance. I mean, just like the lady that picked her up. Her knee jerk reaction was to call somebody instead of bringing her here when everybody around here knows she lives here.

Um, so we tend to get kind of defensive, um, but we don’t need to add fuel to a fire. . .

Pate: I have the Cabinet for Families and Children on their way now.

Joe: That’s fine.

Pate: Actually, I think that we – were you are all living in a mobile home somewhere a few miles away not long ago? We came over and talked with you all then, I think.

Joe: Nope.

Pate: Naugler. You lived somewhere else here in the county, I think, didn’t you?

Joe: No. I mean, it was over in Big Springs.

Pate: I can’t remember.

Joe: We’ve never dealt with law enforcement coming on. . .

Pate: No, we had come there to see you for whatever reason, I don’t know, I came with the Cabinet for Families and Children. . .

Nicole: No.

Pate: whoever had already moved. It’s a double-wide mobile home. No? Okay, it may not have been, I couldn’t. . . the social worker asked me if the last name was Naugler and I asked and she said no, but really, I just want to talk to her at this point and I just want to see what’s going on around here and if, you know, you all have every right. . . I feel like I have every right, probably, to have gone in there without her permission under exigent circumstances, meaning people can be hiding and destroying evidence, blah, blah, blah. . .

Joe: Destroying what evidence?

Pate: I don’t know.

Joe: I was going to say. . .

Pate: I don’t know.

Joe: We’re innocent until proven guilty, I mean, so we live in that, we have a 4th Amendment right to our property.

Pate: You have a 4th Amendment right to your property, but you don’t. . .

Joe: The only probable cause you have at all is just, she walked down the street.

Pate: That’s exactly right.

Joe: And that really isn’t more of a probable cause of anything but just to make sure that this little girl got brought back to her family. And here she is.

Pate: And to make sure that she’s not, that she’s living in an environment that is (ringing phone)

Joe: And this is based on what? Your standards? Or ours?

Pate: No. I mean, you don’t have to have running water. You don’t have to have a refrigerator. You don’t have to have this, that and the other. But, we’ve come to this point and I’ve reached resistance from the time when I walked up this hill so I feel like I have to further investigate it, and that’s what I’m gonna do. I’ve got a Cabinet worker coming out here, um, and we can look around the property with you all’s permission or we can get a search warrant. That’s probably what I’ll end up doing.

Joe: Go ahead. Get a search warrant.

Pate: . . . tell me that. You know I told her, I said, hey if you’d have just said I’ll walk on up here. . . I’m not saying that you’re living in a way that you shouldn’t be, but if she’d have given me the opportunity to talk with her for two or three minutes off to the side with her standing

Nicole: . . . if you’d given me the opportunity. . . You’re the one who never gave me the opportunity. I walked down to meet you. I had sent my boys to go get Daughter. I was walking up, then you. . .

Joe: (puts hand on Daughter and begins walking away) Everybody sit reverently down [Note: this is hard to hear]. Right now.

End of Recording 7

Recording 8

Scene: Nicole is holding camera toward ground, walking toward the garden shed. This is Garden Shed #1, and predates the Shitshack. There is debris all over the ground, of course, and Joe is walking in front of her.

He says something I cannot understand and she replies and I can’t understand that either.

Pate: Is it Joe? Is that your name?

Joe: My name is Joseph, yes.

Pate: Joseph.

The next view is of the open door of the garden shed looking in. It appears that Nicole walks in and shuts the door, panning around the shed.

Nicole: (to kids) Sit at the table now.

Joe: Give me the 22, please. Just give me the 22 so I can set it right here.

Nicole: No, I’m recording

Joe: GIVE ME THE. . . Jacob

Nicole: He’s getting it.

Joe: Thank you. Here you go, sir. This is all we have.

Nicole: Sit down. Sit at the table now. Sit at the table now.

View through the window of the two police officers conferring. Joe is standing on some pallets to the right at a bit of a distance.

Joe: We’re not getting rid of anything.

Pate: I’m not saying that you are. I don’t know that you’re not. I’m not saying that you are.

Joe: And you have no right to accuse us of this. You have no right to accuse us blankly of anything. I’m not sure what you would be looking for.

Pate: I’m not saying that you are. I’m not either.

Nicole: (from doorway) Angel, it’s okay.

Child’s voice: But I’ve never seen this stuff.

Nicole: You can watch the video later. Guys, I can’t record audio if you’re in here making noise.

Video pans and children appear to be rapidly trying to clean up. Shed is a mess.

Joe: You’re the ones with guns that are loaded with one in the chamber. I mean, who really has to be afraid here? You better make sure that you’re prosecuting the right tracks because there will be a lawsuit after this. . .

Pate: I’m telling you what, you’re not gonna go in now.

Joe backs into cabin and begins yelling.

Joe: You can’t just come in like this. You cannot. . . Call the state police! Call the state police right now!

Pate appears in doorway.

Pate: Call the state police. I’m getting ready to call them myself.

Nicole: That’s fine. But you can’t just come forcibly enter.

Pate: You can leave the door open and stay out here with me.

Joe: Absolutely not. Get your foot out of the doorway, sir. Call the state police. Right now. I want the state police out here now.

Pate: I don’t feel that that’s right, Rick (Second Officer), do you?

Joe: It doesn’t matter. It’s our home.

Nicole: . . . because we’re standing up for ourselves. . .

Pate: I would like for you to stand here at the door, I would like for you to stand here at the door and leave it open so I don’t know that someone – I know you’ve told me there’s no other weapons, but I don’t. . .

Joe: It doesn’t matter if I do have weapons. I have a 2nd Amendment right. You have weapons.

Pate: You absolutely have that right.

Nicole: You have a weapon.

Joe: So quit trying to take my rights away. And I haven’t done anything wrong.

Pate: I’m not trying to take your rights away.

Joe: I had to come home from work in fear of, that the government was gonna come and disrupt my family life, and nobody’s done, nobody’s done anything wrong. And here you are, still threatening me. I want this door shut so I can talk to my family.

Pate: Let me say something to you, okay?

Joe: Nicole, call the state police.

Nicole: I’m trying to right now.

Joe: NOW.

Nicole: I’m trying to.

Pate: Let me say something to you, before. Okay? I’m trying to be very easy to deal with with you. I’m telling you. . .

Joe: And so am I. . .

Pate: I’m telling you, I’m telling you, that if you close this door , and I’m going to allow you to do that, if you close this door, I’m going to talk to the county attorney and there’s a very good oppor- chance that you are going to be arrested.

Joe: Okay, Nicole, are you recording this?

Nicole: I am.

Pate: Have you got that? I want her to record it. Do you understand that? Do you understand that?

Joe: Do you understand my rights as well?

Pate: You are willing to take that chance.

Joe: Sure. Absolutely. You can get your foot off my door, please? Please.

Pate: I want the door to remain open.

Joe: You just said you were gonna. . .

Pate: I want it to remain open.

Nicole: (on phone in background) Yes, hi. I’m not sure who I need to call, but I’m in Breckinridge County, and we have the county sheriff out here and he is harassing us and not following protocol and I’m getting kind of scared here, because we’ve given him our weapons already and now we’re unarmed and he won’t even let us close our door and he has no warrant or anything. He just came up here and barged his way through and I am terrified. And I don’t know what you guys have, I don’t know what jurisdiction you have, but I would like a state trooper here immediately.

NOTE: Throughout this recording, as Nicole gets upset, she gets louder and more shrill. It’s interesting that during this phone conversation with the State Police office, she is the calmest that she appears in this entire thing. Not harsh, or shrill and certainly not “terrified.”

Joe: Yes.

Pate: I’ve got one the way.

Nicole: I have a Breckinridge County sheriff’s officer at my door. He will not. . . he’s not following protocol and I’m recording everything. And I want a state trooper here now.

Um, I am on Whitworth-Lockard Road. There is no address. It’s about a mile down on the right-hand side, it’s a driveway. The house is back from the road.

Joe: Jacob. Jacob. Come here. I want you to stand right here and just keep your arm on this door.

Jacob comes and is basically placed between Joe and Nicole in the shed and Pate at the door.

Pate: Hello, is (name not clear) there?

Nicole (still on phone): Well, my daughter went for a walk on the road and they got a call about her and they wanted to come talk to me but then they wouldn’t follow protocol in talking to me. They just barged up into my property with their weapons and took, and we gave them our weapons to show that we’re not hiding anything but they still insisted on trying to enter. They won’t let us close our door. They won’t let us. . .

Joe: (in background) Everybody have a seat.

Pate: I tell you what, Em, would you try to call him too and tell him to call me on my cell phone?

Nicole: I’ve never been in a position where I was scared of a sheriff’s officer but now I am because now they’re calling for more people to come in, they’re letting us proceed with our normal. . . Thank you.

Yeah, I called the state police.

Pate: Yeah, and tell him to call me pretty soon if he can. Okay, thanks Mandy. Bye, bye.

Nicole: I’ll have to start recording on yours in a minute cause mine might run out.

Joe: Yeah, I’m not sure what this gentleman wants.

Nicole: Complacency and obedience.

Joe: Yeah, I can see that.

Nicole: Complacency and obedience, that’s what he wants.

Joe: Jacob, stand right here so this door doesn’t fly. . .

End of Recording 8

Recording 9
Scene: We see Pate’s legs, standing on the pallet that seems to serve as a landing for the garden shed, with a bit of Joe visible to the right. Somehow, Joe has come outside since the Great Standoff At The Door occurred.

Pate: . . . at this point.

Joe: There will be a lawsuit after this. I want you to know that.

Pate: And there very well may be an arrest after this.

Nicole: An arrest for what?

Joe: I have broken no laws.

Nicole: Daughter never broke any laws either.

Joe: Nobody broke any laws.

Nicole: I asked him to cite me that and he never provided me with that information.

Joe: (turning and walking into the shed) I know it. They just intimidate you and bully you.

Pate: I’m not required to cite law to you.

Nicole: Because you don’t know it. You’re enforcing laws that you don’t understand.

Pate: Um, yes I do.

Nicole: And that’s not. . . that’s scary. That’s scary.

Joe: You are supposed to. . .(more but Nicole is talking over him, drowning him out)

Pate: I told you what my investigation was about and that is why I’m here.

Nicole: And had you let me walk my daughter, she was on her way down. If you had let me walk her down there, this would have been all resolved down there. But you insisted on coming up and I said, hey, at least wait until my husband gets home and you didn’t even wanna do that.

Joe: (very sharp tone) You don’t have respect for people and their rights and their families.

Pate: You refused to let me talk to your daughter. (He says something else but Nicole and Joe drown him out.)

Nicole: I refused to let you talk to my daughter alone.

Joe: As a mother she has a right to refuse.

Nicole: Yes, without a warrant. . .

Pate: She has a responsibility to keep up with her children. . . walking down the road. . .

Joe: and you have a responsibility to hold up the Constitution. You really do.

Pate: That’s what I’m doing.

Joe: No you’re not. We have a 4th Amendment right. You’re violating that absolutely. You are on my property without a warrant. (To Nicole) You’re recording this, right?

Nicole: I am. I’ve recorded as much as I can from the beginning.

Joe: This is going viral. This is gonna be a lawsuit. We’ve already got. . . I already called a few people on the way over.

Pate makes phone call.

Nicole: . . .threatening my family now. . .

Pate: What have I done to threaten you?

Joe: You just got done telling me that I was gonna be arrested if I closed my own personal door on my property.

Nicole: You threatened to put him in jail. You told my children

Joe: You have no grounds. You have no grounds, sir.

Pate’s call connects and he begins talking to the person on the phone and turns his back to Joe and Nicole.

Nicole: You can’t just threaten someone with arrest when they’re not doing anything

Pate: (on phone) Are you in the middle of anything at this time? Okay, I am over at a residence in (walks out of range of hearing)

Joe walks into camera view.

Nicole: He has my children in tears now. If you’re so concerned about my children, why are you making them cry? Why are you making them fearful of you? Barge into my house like that. . .

Joe makes motion toward Nicole and says something indistinct, but clearly wants her to shut up so he can listen to Pate’s convo on the phone.

Joe: Right there. (points at Pate) (Then to children) I want everybody reverently at the table. That’s why we don’t want these people involved, do you understand?

Second Officer: That’s the state trooper. He’s on his way.

Joe: Thank you very much. What’s your first name?

Second Officer: Rick.

Nicole: And he’s the sheriff, acting sheriff.

Joe: Yeah, I’ve met him.

Nicole: Yeah, . . .pretty sure. . . vehicles.

At this point, there is some wind interference

Nicole: . . . walking away. . .

Joe: yeah, that’s because he’s trying to manipulate the information for the judges

Nicole: Yep

Joe: We technically have nothing to hide but that doesn’t mean we need to give up our rights

Nicole: No. That’s what I told him.

Joe: We’re just camping on the property for a couple of months.

Nicole: Doesn’t even matter. Doesn’t even matter. I don’t have to explain myself to anybody. I’ve harmed no one. Committed no crime against anybody, and I’ve done nothing wrong, but yet, here I am.

Joe: (mumbles)

Nicole: I understand that. ( Sound of car engine) Oh, he’s speeding. Oh, he’s probably speeding. Go get ’em.

Joe mumbles something and Nicole laughs. Pate is out of ear shot on the phone.

Joe: My wife is. . .

End of Recording 9

Recording 10

Scene: Continuation, it seems, from Recording 9. Pate is in the distance, on the phone.

Nicole: (Indistinct). . Got your phone? Oh, I put it there.

Joe: (indistinct) . . . firearms. ..

Nicole: He asked if there was anything and Jacob told him.

Joe: Okay, we don’t ever. . . this is why. Look they wanna come in and control everything. They want to dictate our lifestyle, our language and everything. We don’t. . .

Nicole: He tried, at first, but they kind of . . .intimidated him. And that goat got into that trash again.

Note: Pate asked the question about guns and Jacob answered it without hesitation. There was no “intimidation.”

End of Recording 10

Recording 11

Scene: Looking at an officer’s legs and the trashy yard. This conversation appears to be carried on for the benefit of Second Officer who is standing nearby.

Joe: . . .our property and to make our lives hell.

Nicole: Right. Repercussion for not cooperation. Yep, but that time, remember a couple of years ago when CPS came, they, they said that they, that I could stand there while they talked to Daughter.

Joe: Yeah, I know. I know.

Nicole: That’s how that’s supposed to work.

Joe: I know. That’s why I want the state police out here because they backed us up.

Nicole: I wasn’t telling Daughter what to say. I just wanted to be there, present, when he talked to her, at the end of my driveway.

Joe: I just don’t want them sexually abusing my child. I don’t want them sexually abusing my child. . . talk to the child alone. (Speaking to Second Officer) I mean, you weren’t even up here yet, were you? Yeah, see, it would have been different if two of them were up here.

He should have never have asked you that without a husband here.

Nicole: Right. If anything, a female officer.

Joe: I’ll have to call . . . and file a lawsuit no matter how this turns out.

Nicole: Well, might have. . .

Joe: Still recording?

Nicole: Yeah.

Joe: Hopefully I’ll be able to go back to work.

Nicole: I was asked how we support our children.

Joe: Oh, really?

Nicole: I said we both work, we don’t take government bribes.

Pate finishes phone call.

Pate: Okay. I don’t like to even phrase things this way. I don’t mind at all obtaining a search warrant, which is a possibility, a likely possibility

Joe: Well, I thought that’s what you were calling for. She’s not approving it?

Pate: No, she’s not. She said you, if you want to go back and let them give you permission, that’s fine.

If not, get the county. . . okay, I really don’t feel good about it

Joe: That’s fine. Because I don’t feel good about a single man that we don’t know, we’ve never met you before, asking to speak to my seven-year-old daughter alone.

Second Officer: But it’s okay for her to be walking out in the street

Joe: That. . . she walked off. . . we didn’t give her permission to do that. She got properly disciplined for that, so, we’re parents. Kids make mistakes, we disciplined her for that.

Second Officer: Are they properly being watched after? When they walk away?

Joe: Absolutely. Absolutely

Second Officer: When they get a mile away. . .

Pate then steps up and motions for Joe to come with him aside.

Nicole: To be truthful though, I trust my daughter more by herself than I do with somebody I don’t know. But granted, she did. . .

Second Officer: She’s exposed to people, you know. I mean, you know, there are probably

Nicole: I agree, it wasn’t a safe move for her to do and we discussed that with her and she’s lost privileges because of that, but. . .

Second Officer: There are probably 150 registered pedophiles in this county that have moved here.

Nicole: Yeah, it’s a pretty high number.

Second Officer: That was the concern to start all this anyways. The caller didn’t think she was safe out. . .

End of Recording 11

Recording 12

Scene: Pate standing in camera view, Joe to the side.

Nicole: And what is your search warrant going to entail? What is your. . . excuse me. . .

Joe: No, let them do what they’re gonna do.

Nicole: I would like to know what your search warrant entails, what your search warrant’s gonna specify

Joe: That’s going to depend on what he tells the judge.

Nicole: I’m just wondering what you’re looking for with your search warrant, because it has to say what you’re looking for.

Second Officer: It will be in the search warrant.

Nicole: Yeah, what are you asking for, then? What are you asking for?

Joe: You’re not going to preemptively tell us what you’re. . .

End of Recording 12

And that is all.

Which is sort of anti-climactic, is it not?  There is no denouement. What happened?  Did Sheriff Pate get a search warrant?  Did Joe get arrested? Did anyone ever talk to Daughter?

Well, Nicole doesn’t appear to have ever said, but we sort of know.

From the “we’re taking the kids” video, we have this:

Pate: If you don’t allow, after allegations have been made, the Cabinet for Families and Children to speak to those children, just like I said the last time – and Joe said today, he said, “Well, you said you were getting a warrant last time and you didn’t.” No, I did not. Why did I not? Because you all allowed them to speak to the Cabinet worker. Here’s how I see this thing going down. Here’s how I feel certain that it’s going to go down.

Nicole didn’t contradict him here, so we have to assume that’s exactly what happened. They got a social worker out there and Joe and Nicole caved and allowed the child to be interviewed.

This, along with the “taking the kids” video, was my first introduction to the nightmare that is Nauglerville.  I was immediately taken aback by their almost callous disregard for their daughter.  Daughter did not “go for a walk.”  Daughter was seven years old and walked over a mile away from the Shithole.  Daughter was running away, or at the very least, trying to get away for some reason.

To get that far away, she had to have been gone for a minimum of 20 minutes and I would guess far longer, probably the better part of an hour. I don’t know, because Nicole doesn’t say and probably never will say, whether or not anyone even missed the child, or if the first thing they knew about her even being gone was when she came home.

And Nicole’s excuse about how they have “28 acres” as though they live on some extremely large amount of property is just horseshit.  We have 20 acres, not very much less than they have.  It’s not all that much land.  Most of ours is fenced, in fact.  I could walk all around the whole place in probably ten minutes.  I know Nicole is somehow under the impression that they bought this enormous plot of ground, but by country standards, they have a very small place (as do we).  One of our close neighbors has almost 60 acres and he considers his place to be small.  The dairy has 400 and is considered a small dairy.

Yet, their response to this is to carry on about how she was “disciplined.”

You don’t “discipline” a child who runs away.

I wonder what happened to the lawsuit?

Belted

videostill

This was August 10, 2013.  Joe, driving their van, was pulled over because the officer thought that at least one of the children was not properly belted.

Here’s the transcript.

The video is shot from Nicole’s perspective, riding shotgun. We can see part of Joe, the steering wheel, the driver’s window and the police officer.

Joe: You pulled me over for what –

Officer: (very indistinct because Joe and Nicole are much closer to the mike) That child does not have a –

Joe: because you assumed that he didn’t have a. . . he fucking did.

Nicole: It’s a lap belt. It’s a lap belt.

Officer: The seat belt is supposed to go across his chest.

Nicole: It’s a lap belt. This is a 2002, a 15-passenger van. It has a. . .

Officer: It’s a seat belt that is supposed to go across his chest. And it’s not.

Nicole: It’s on the way it’s supposed to be. I’m not sure what else I can do.

Joe: (turns around, apparently to look in the back) Yeah, it’s across his chest, right now.

Officer: I just pulled you over, and it’s going across his chest.

Joe: It was going across his chest before.

Officer: No. . .

Joe: Yes, it was.

Nicole: It looks that way because of what it is. It looks that way because of the way it is.

[Officer steps away from the window, out of view.]

Joe: Yep. It’s no big deal.

Child’s voice from the back: (low and indistinct) . . . it’s supposed to be. . .

[At this point, it appears like Nicole got out of the van, setting down the phone, or at least opened the door and then closed it.

They sit there, Joe looking through what appears to be documents from his wallet, perhaps.]

Joe: (to children in back) I told you guys to buckle up. Buckle up right.

Nicole: They are. They are in their seat belts the way that they go.

Child’s voice: The other one was ripped off, so he’s going to have to use that one. I can’t find the other one.

Joe: Everybody’s got proper seat belts? Everybody’s got manufactured – factured, warranteed. . .

Nicole: That’s the way it goes.

Joe: . . . fucking assholes.

Nicole: (very quietly) watch your language, please

Joe: . . starts yelling at me and slamming his finger in my face. . .

[For the record, the officer never raised his voice, nor did he “slam a finger.” The voices being raised were coming from Joe and Nicole.]

Nicole: (turns camera and we can see the rear of the vehicle with seats occupied by children) There’s two of them. For a seat belt violation.

Joe: Oh, he’s called more. Oh, he’s called. He called it in.

Some children’s voices from the rear, mostly gibberish and “Mom”

Joe: All right, everybody quiet so I can hear what’s going. . . (indistinct) get out of the van (little laugh)

Nicole: . . he asked you if you wanted to fight, basically. . .

Joe: That’s what he did. That’s why I said, start recording right now. Wants to pick a fight with me because he thinks one of my kids isn’t buckled up right.

Nicole: He was going to climb in the vehicle, and I said, no way, um, I’m not comfortable with you getting in my car. And he said, “oh, you want to play that way” I should have started recording before he pulled me over but I was trying to get my phone out of my pocket

Joe: Have you got some time?

Nicole: Yeah, it should go for 25 minutes at least.

Joe: Yeah, as soon as you start to question them, they wanna pick a fight. What did he say? “Okay we’ll have it that way.” What a joke. Somebody actually. . . somebody actually. . .fuck.

Officer (reappears at window): How old’s the child in the back right?

Second officer appears in view in background.

Nicole: I don’t have to give you that information.

Officer: You don’t have to give information. . .

Nicole: I don’t have to give you that information, no. I don’t.

Officer: There is a booster law in Kentucky, okay, that requires a . . .

Nicole: He’s above that age. That’s my word for it.

Officer: Is he over 41 inches?

Nicole: I give you my word for it. He’s old enough to be out of a booster seat.

Second officer (who has now come closer to the window): Huh?

Nicole: I will say he’s old enough to be out of a booster seat. That’s. . .

Second officer: It’s not about the age. It’s the height.

Nicole: I understand that. My child is old enough to be out of a booster seat.

Second officer: We have to measure him in order to . . . find out . . . if they’re over. . .

Nicole: Um, I’m not going to allow you to do anything to my child without a warrant.

Second officer: Without a what?

Nicole: Without a warrant. You’re not touching or . . . (indistinct) my child. . .

Second officer: What do you think this is?

Joe: America.

Second officer: Right. I know. But there’s laws that you have to follow.

Nicole: Right.

Joe: We do, but (indistinct arguing). Just like this guy. We started. . .

Second officer: Listen, I don’t have any (dog in this fight – indistinct )

Joe: (indistinct): . . . fight. . .

Nicole: I understand that. I’m just telling you that you’re not gonna. . . But I’m gonna tell you right now, I’m not going to let you do anything to my child. I give you my word that he’s old enough to be in that seat. . .

Second officer: Okay. The only other way to do that is to cite you all for the violation. . .

Joe: and court.

Nicole . . .and we go to court. And we’ll talk it up with the judge.

Joe: And we’ve got it all recorded. We’ve got this young man – as soon as we start to say there’s nothing wrong, he said “oh yeah” and “we’ll have it this way then.” Picking a fight. We’ve got it all. And we’ll be glad to show the judge.

Nicole: Hey, he tried coming in my van and I told him. . .

Joe: I don’t have time to deal with this. I’m an American citizen. I have rights. You guys have your guns and that’s fine. You have your authority and you have to pass unconstitutional laws and you have to enforce them. . .

Second officer: What he saying is that the child wasn’t restrained.

Joe: The child was restrained.

Nicole: And I’m saying he was, so it’s his word against mine. And I don’t make money off of it and he does, so

Second officer: Well, that’s his statement.

Joe: Did you see it?

Second officer: No, I didn’t see it.

Joe: All you know is that he started acting aggravated because we became a little obstinate. . . Because he just started to plow through my car.

Nicole: He tried to come in my car and we told him that we weren’t allowing him in my car.

Second officer: The only thing I seen was your being elevated. . .

Joe: Well, he screamed at me first.

Second officer: Well, I didn’t see that.

Joe: This is your buddy, I got you.

Second officer: No. I’m saying I didn’t see that because I just pulled up.

Joe: Well, he yelled first, I mean

Second officer: I’ve been there the whole time. . .

Nicole: He got upset because we wouldn’t let him in the car.

Joe: I got you. I got you.

Second officer: It’s not cool of you to make accusations at me. I haven’t done anything to you.

Joe: What if I did, though?

Second officer: Huh?

Joe: What if I did make accusations?

Second officer: You didn’t make accusations?

Joe: No. What if I did?

Second officer: What do you mean?

Joe: I don’t know. .

Second officer: Where are you going with this? (Smiles broadly)

Nicole: (garbled) telling you what’s gonna happen.

Second officer: He’s writing you guys a ticket, okay. You guys will have a court date and you guys can work with a judge, so. . .

Joe: We’ll be glad to work with. .

Second officer: Alrighty, guys (walking away)

Joe: and the paper and everything else.

Nicole: It’s their word against mine. My son was buckled up. I don’t know what else they can do. But I don’t profit from the seat belt laws and they do, so I guess if that’s how they want to play it.

Joe: . . start recording right away.

Nicole: Seat belts buckled?

Joe: everybody was

Child: yes

Nicole: No, I’m asking was the cop properly buckled, cause I don’t think he was. I think we should give him a citation for not being properly buckled and he can’t prove that he was

Joe: He’s on his phone. They are gonna try to get away with something else.

Voice (maybe a child): (garbled)

Joe: I want everybody fixed because. . .

Nicole: If they come back and see (indistinct), they’re gonna start finding stuff.

[Low conversation between Nicole and children in the background ]

Nicole: Over [child’s name], yes.

[more conversation among the children]

Child: we’re going to court. We got a ticket and we’re going to court.

Joe: Guys. Make sure your seat belts are on right. Make sure your straps are on right.

Nicole: [child’s name], make sure you sit right. Sit right, [child’s name] Put it under his lap. Fix it for him, [child’s name]. Fix it for him.

Joe: I’m telling you, they hire the most ego-maniacs they can. And they love that government school crap, and then they follow orders. They don’t even care. I bet you ask these guys what the Constitution is – they ain’t gotta clue. They couldn’t cite you one thing. All’s they know is what their supervisor told them this morning. Oh, and they added 15-passenger vans. They have to have seat belts.

Nicole: I’m gonna ask him that when he comes back.

Joe: No, you’re not going to ask him anything. Now remember, he said he wasn’t going to write this ticket until we gave him a hard time.

Nicole: Yeah, meaning I wouldn’t let him in my van.

Joe: That’s right. You’re not coming in my van. You’re not just gonna blatantly walk up like you think you own the place. Did you get the whole squabble thing?

Nicole: I don’t know when it started. I can check it afterwards.

Joe: No, I told you to start recording at that point.

Nicole: I was trying to fumble for my phone.

Joe: started acting like a tough guy. When I said record, that’s when he calmed down a little bit. And the other officer is “no I saw you elevated.” Yeah. I’m sure he did, cause he’s your buddy. Ah, you can’t make accusations like that. Okay, well, what if I do make accusations like that? You gonna be a tough guy now? He’s like, “What?”

Nicole: (makes garbled comment)

Joe: Fill in the blanks. Let’s go. They just want to know how many tickets to write us. He’s gonna make me sign something. Should I sign it?

Nicole: No.

Joe: I refuse to sign it. What if he threatens to arrest me? For not signing. What do I say, that I refuse to sign it. What do I say? I just say I don’t know.

And the recording ends there.

But the story doesn’t, of course.  Joe was given a ticket, as the officer said.

citationrecord

His hearing was scheduled, rescheduled, rescheduled yet again and then dismissed.

It was dismissed because the officer in question didn’t show up.  He didn’t show up because of this.

mattisentence

This incident had just occurred, and Matti was on suspension (ultimately fired).

But let’s read Nicole’s account of all this.

fromnicolesblog1

fromnicolesblog2

It’s amazing.  Of course, we’re dealing here with the portion of the recording that she chose to make public.  We have no idea what came before, but it’s odd to me that she insists that everyone was buckled up fine, yet during the recording, it’s quite clear that both she and Joe were pretty frantically adjusting seat belts and fixing everything, and one of the kids quite clearly says that at least one belt is not functioning.

Joe: (to children in back) I told you guys to buckle up. Buckle up right.

Nicole: They are. They are in their seat belts the way that they go.

Child’s voice: The other one was ripped off, so he’s going to have to use that one. I can’t find the other one.

Joe: Everybody’s got proper seat belts? Everybody’s got manufactured – factured, warranteed. . .

They don’t have spare seat belts in vehicles.  If one was “ripped off,” then it’s not working.  I am not making up what this child said. It is quite clear on the recording. I didn’t release that recording publicly.  Nicole did.

Furthermore, Joe tells the second officer that he has it all recorded. But then, it’s clear that they don’t.  This was Joe blustering of course, trying to intimidate the officer.

But then, in her account, she says that the officer “was crooked.”  And “no surprises.”

Her insinuation is that Joe was not guilty because the officer was subsequently fired (and faced criminal charges) for some very bad behavior.

This is, of course, faulty reasoning.  The officer’s guilt or innocence in those separate charges has nothing whatever to do with whether or not the Naugler kid was properly belted. Yes, the charges were dismissed because officer had royally fucked up and couldn’t be present to testify. But that doesn’t mean Joe was innocent. That means he was lucky.

But the larger issue here to me is the recording itself. This was almost two years before the children were taken, but Joe and Nicole already had an adversarial attitude when it came to the police.  They went into defense mode from the second the cop pulled them over.  All the bullshit like this.

Joe: I don’t have time to deal with this. I’m an American citizen. I have rights. You guys have your guns and that’s fine. You have your authority and you have to pass unconstitutional laws and you have to enforce them. . .

They create their own problems.

It would be nice, though, if Joe actually knew fuck-all about what he’s talking about.  As the recording makes clear, he doesn’t. He has to ask Nicole what to do about stuff.

Joe: Fill in the blanks. Let’s go. They just want to know how many tickets to write us. He’s gonna make me sign something. Should I sign it?

Nicole: No.

Joe: I refuse to sign it. What if he threatens to arrest me? For not signing. What do I say, that I refuse to sign it. What do I say? I just say I don’t know.

 

Annoyed

In March of 2006, a young American soldier was killed in Iraq.  His name was Matthew Snyder.

His family, including his father, Albert Snyder, attended his funeral in Maryland a week or so later.  Also in the area were picketers from the infamous Westboro Baptist Church.

godhatesfags

picketing

In addition, Westboro put up at least one page on their website where they said that Matthew went to hell and that his parents (who are Roman Catholic) had raised him that way and it was basically their fault. [The page they put up apparently no longer exists, but I am linking to a copy of the text provided by Westboro.]

Albert Snyder sued them.

snydervphelps

And Albert won.  He won big.  He won millions. They argued around about it for a bit and it finally came to $5 million.  Wow.  He won.

Briefly.

Westboro appealed the decision and the higher court reversed it.  Not only that, but Snyder was ordered to pay Westboro’s court costs, amounting to more than $15,000.

I remember all this well, because I was intrigued by the case.  There was outrage across the nation. Bill O’Reilly came rampaging onto the scene and offered to pay the court costs for Snyder.  And it was appealed again, to the US Supreme Court.

Like nearly everyone else in the nation, I simply couldn’t understand this ruling.  Was it, as so many claimed, a “liberal activist court” that reversed this decision?  And if so, why in the world would they? Why would a “liberal” court think what Westboro does is okay?  Why wouldn’t the courts smack those horrible Westboro people down and put a stop to what they do?

I wanted to know.

So I read the decision.

It’s lengthy, so I’ll give you the condensed version.

There were basically two different complaints made by Mr. Snyder.

The first involved “real life,” the picketing at the funeral.

Shouldn’t that be illegal?  Mr. Snyder was devastated, he said, when he saw news coverage on the television about the picketing of the funeral.

Wait. He saw it on the television?

But they were picketing the funeral, weren’t they?

It turns out that Westboro’s picketers, who had complied to the letter with every ordinance that the city had regarding such activities, could not be seen by people coming and going from the church.  Mr. Snyder didn’t even know they were there until he saw the news coverage later.

So Westboro had totally complied with the law, and Snyder didn’t even know about it until it was all over.

The second issue involved the page on the Westboro site.

The page in question had a little sermonette on it, complete with a long Bible passage, and this:

Twenty years ago, little Matthew Snyder came into the world.  He had a calling, he had a vital roll in these last of the last days.  God created him and loaned/entrusted him to Albert and Julie Snyder.  He required a standard of him when he delivered the lad to them to teach him among others things to fear god and to keep his commandments.  God expected them to GIVE THAT CHILD BACK in thanksgiving to him for the blessings of the opportunity and privilege they received from their God, to raise that child.

There’s a few more Bible verses and then:

God blessed you Mr. and Mrs. Snyder with a resource and his name was Matthew.  He was an arrow in your quiver!  In thanks to God for the comfort the child could bring you, you had a DUTY to prepare that child to serve the LORD his GOD – PERIOD!  You did just THE OPPOSITE – you raised him for the devil.  You taught him that God was a liar.

And then some more preachy stuff and:

Albert and Julie RIPPED that body apart and taught Matthew to defy his Creator, to divorce, and to commit adultery.  They taught him how to support the largest pedophile machine in the history of the entire world, the Roman Catholic monstrosity.  Every dime they gave the Roman Catholic monster they condemned their own souls.  They also taught him to be an idolater.

Bad, huh?  There’s more, but that’s the main stuff, the worst stuff. And it’s pretty awful. I will grant you that.  I’ve read something similar written about me and my husband and our son.  Wonder where I read that?

But you know what the court said about all that?

Their opinion was that it was quite obviously opinion.  Nobody at Westboro Baptist Church knew Matthew Snyder or his parents, nor did they claim to.  The information on that page was all obtained from public sources.  Any reasonable person reading that would understand that whoever wrote it was just engaging in a religious rant.

For instance: they say “you raised him for the devil.”  Well, there is no evidence whatever that such a being even exists, so how can that be any sort of statement of fact?

But Albert Snyder claimed that this hurt him horribly.  I get that. I know how it feels, frankly, to read something cruel like that about your son for whom you grieve.

However, in order to read it, Albert Snyder had to use Google.

Read that again.

He had to use Google.

Westboro Baptist Church did not email that to him. They didn’t print it out and send it to him by certified mail.  They just put it on their web site.

Albert Snyder didn’t have to go to their web site.

When the case was appealed to the US Supreme Court, the justices only ruled on the first issue, the one about the picketing. They found in Westboro’s favor by 8:1 (which is considerable).  In other words, the liberals on the Court and the conservatives on the Court pretty much saw this the same way.

They didn’t offer an opinion about the online stuff, but when they do that, it simply means that the opinion of the lower court (the appeals court) stands.

And that leads me right here.

annoyed

She has cherry-picked some language from the Kentucky statute on harassment, located here.  She is flinging this about today as though it’s meaningful.

Nicole and Joe are really fond of citing various laws and statutes and Constitutional amendments and declaring that they “know their rights.”

But there is a problem here. What she’s saying is that if somebody repeatedly does something that “seriously annoys” me, I can sue them for harassment.

Want me to make a list of all the people who have “seriously annoyed” me in the last week?

How about the woman who was in Aldi on Wednesday?  She was ahead of me in the check out lane and got into a conversation with the woman ahead of her and simply would not shut up. She chattered and talked and then tried to get the checker involved in the discussion and seriously annoyed me.

And when I finally got to the checker and was delighted that Chatterbox was done, to my dismay and extreme annoyance, Chatterbox was still talking and blocking my cart.  I had to interrupt her with “Excuse me, ma’am” to get her to move out of the way, which she did without ever missing a word.

And finally, when I got to the counter to bag my groceries, Chatterbox was in my way yet again, still talking.

I am telling you, I was seriously annoyed and she did it repeatedly.

Should I sue her?

Nicole insisted, in her silly little “cease and desist letter” that I was harassing her.

But you see, I have never once sent Nicole anything.  No crappy comments made on her blog under an assumed name.  No certified mail. No going to her Facebook pages and commenting to get her into an argument.  Nothing. In order to even find this blog, Nicole would have to voluntarily visit my personal Facebook page. Or voluntarily visit the Facebook page that advertises this blog. Or use Google.

Just like Mr. Snyder did with Westboro Baptist Church.

This is not about whether she likes what I say or what I write about. I don’t like Westboro Baptist Church’s methods or their message. I find them abhorrent.  I assume Nicole views me similarly.

Her rights are not the only ones under consideration here.

Mine are as well.

 

 

De-escalation

tenthings

tenthings2

I find it disturbing he was offended by it.

He wasn’t “offended” by it.  I have never spoken with the man, and I know he wasn’t “offended.”

He did a very reasonable thing in light of the situation that had occurred the year before when the youngest daughter ran away, and checked out as much as he could before going to that property to remove the children.

And yes, that’s why he went there.

He told Nicole that, over and over again.

Here’s the first clue:

Pate: Okay. How many of you all are here now?

Nicole: It’s me and my two teenage sons.

Pate: The other children are not here?

He went on from there.

Pate: You are standing the chance of having your children removed.

How much more direct did he have to be?

Pate: When there are allegations made, okay, they have an obligation to check that out. They can’t say, oh, we just don’t believe it, or oh, we went out there and the mother and father said you can’t speak to them. They can’t do that. I mean, whether they think that it’s BS or not– and a lot of times we get those type of calls – and there’s probably a decent chance that is this type of call, and there’s a decent chance that this thing could be resolved much simpler – but I’m telling you, the refusal, to say no you will not talk to my children or no you will not do that – the court is gonna step in and I think that they will remove your children, and they will talk to your children whether you like that or not.

That direct.

What was happening, I think, is that Sheriff Pate knew that CPS was in court as he spoke getting a removal order signed by a judge. He was basically waiting for the green light.

At that point, Nicole could have taken his advice. She could have said, “Okay, let me call Joe. We’ll bring the kids here and CPS can come out here and talk with them.”  I think that if she had done that, Pate would have called CPS and said, “Hold off. I think she’s coming around.”

But he didn’t really expect that to happen. He was hoping but he was also preparing.

As far as Facebook is concerned, he had every right to look at her Facebook page.  Anyone does. I do.  It’s public.

I doubt he even looked at the video. I know I didn’t.  He just looked at the tone of her Facebook posts.

It’s easy to do this. Everyone does it.

Let’s take Matthew Smithers as an example. He commented on a public page and said some dumb shit. Who is he?

smitherstrumper

He’s a Trumper.

smithersracist

He’s racist.  There’s more than one post of this sort of thing.

smitherssnakes

He’s a fundamentalist. And not just a little bit fundamentalist. He’s the snake-handling type.

There is enough further information to tell me that he’s married, it seems happily, he seems to be a parent, he’s a computer programmer (or something similar) and unhappy with his profession. He went to “Bible school” for a short time.

That took me about two minutes and it is not stalking.  Smithers chose to post that stuff publicly. Anyone can see it.  Don’t want people to see  your shit?  Don’t post it publicly.

That swift perusal of Smithers’ Facebook page tells me, though, that a black Democratic Jehovah’s Witness probably would not do very well on a home visit. I’m not implying that he’d do anything wrong or even be rude. I am saying that he probably wouldn’t convert.

And that’s what Pate was doing. He was simply looking to get the flavor of Nicole’s page, to better understand Nicole. What he saw there disturbed him.  It disturbs me.  She’s hostile to the police, really hostile.

And when he was face-to-face with her, she added to that feeling with her remarks.

Pate: You have a right to do whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever, but here’s what I see coming down the pike. You can believe me or not believe me.

Nicole: I know what the state’s willing to do. I know what it’s allowed to do and I know what it’s willing to do.

And this:

Pate: but I know that there’s gunfire around here and I see things that are posted such as – how am I supposed to take something that says you picked the wrong person to fight with now and . . .

Nicole: Yes, I was referring to the woman who reported

Pate: I mean, are you saying that there is potential gunfire on you all’s part

Nicole: I didn’t say anything. You can read into it however you want to, but I will protect my family.

Pate: But do you understand where I might read into it that?

The man is trying to explain to her that what she’s saying, that her overall attitude, coupled with her Facebook posts, gives him reason to proceed with extreme caution.

Nicole: I am protecting my children from the state.

Pate: They are getting ready to go into state custody.

Nicole: No, they’re not. No, they’re not.

Pate: Okay.

Nicole: They’re not.

Pate: Okay.

Nicole: Mark my words, they will not.

Pate: They will not. Do you have them prepared to do something?

Nicole: I don’t have them prepared to do anything.

This sounds like a threat.  It just does. If I had been Pate, I certainly would have taken it as a threat to do physical harm if necessary to stop Pate from taking those kids.

Remember, this man has been doing what he does for more than twenty years. Nicole and Joe Naugler weren’t his first rodeo. He’s had training in how to deal with people like them and end up with everyone alive and well.

At this point, after she’s threatened him over and over again, he asks her to let him see the boys.

Of course he was “sizing them up.”  Naturally he was. For all he knew, they were hiding in the bushes ready to pick him off.  The situation was potentially very volatile.  He did not want to deal with the Kanes, and I don’t blame him.

So he got her to let him see the boys. It served a couple of purposes. The boys got to see that he wasn’t hurting their mother, that they were simply having a conversation, that there was no imminent threat.  He got to eyeball them, to more or less “meet” them.  That makes it a bit harder for a kid who has never shot a human being to do that.

And then he allowed them to leave the property.

Of course he did.

He wanted them away from any stashed weapons.  He wanted to make sure that anything they had was confined to that vehicle.

I have no idea if Nicole or Jacob or the other boy had/have the idiocy required to actually have gotten into a fire fight with the police (their chances of survival would have been slim had they done so), but Sheriff Pate couldn’t take a chance on it.

Pate: and I don’t use, and I don’t use the resources that are available to me, you know. And if I don’t, you know, and you know, I have to use those resources to find out about threats against my officers and other people. My goal at the end of the day is to go home, to see my family.

See? He told her. His goal was to survive the encounter.  That’s his primary goal.  It always is. It always should be. His second goal was that all three of the Nauglers present should survive the encounter as well.

Sheriff Pate had a removal order signed by a judge. It was completely legal. It was his job to take custody of those minor children.  It was up to him to use his training and the “resources available to him” to accomplish that in a way that ensured everyone’s safety.

He did a fine job, an exemplary job.  He gave her every chance in the world to back down. He was honest and straight with her.  He didn’t stop her on some bogus traffic thing. He told her he wouldn’t do that. He stopped her and executed the removal order, exactly as he’d already told her he was going to do.

She is extremely fortunate that Sheriff Pate is the police officer she dealt with that day.

 

 

 

Oblivious

To refresh your memory, there is this.

[6:51 on Youtube video]

[kids chattering in background]

Joe: Have a seat right now. I have to tell you what’s going on.

[kids background noise]

Joe: Okay, listen. The state has kidnapped Jacob and [second oldest son’s name]. They’ve arrested Mom, okay, and they will be kidnapping you tomorrow morning. If I don’t bring you down to the sheriff’s office by ten o’clock tomorrow morning, they will put FELONY CHARGES out on me. And Mom.

So this is what’s gonna happen. Tomorrow morning, I’m going down to the sheriff’s office and I’m just gonna have to send you guys to the state for a while, until we can get you guys back.

Okay? That’s just what’s gonna happen, and there’s nothing I can do about it. (inaudible) force of a gun to dictate this. You guys understand why we live the way we live? You guys understand?

Okay, while you’re with them, you say nothing. You understand? Don’t consent, and nothing.

Child’s voice: What’s consent?

Joe: You don’t, you don’t agree with what they’re doing. Okay? You be reverent, you be decent, okay? All right? But. . . this is, this is crazy out of control. So, I have to drop you guys off at ten o’clock tomorrow. You will not be living with us for I don’t know how long.

It is not hard to see what is wrong with this.  Any parent worth the name would know what is wrong with this.

Except Nicole Naugler, who is totally oblivious.

consent1

It is not “harsh” in Nicole’s world to coldly inform a small child that the police are going to kidnap him.  This was said to small children who have spent their entire lives being told that the police are people to fear, that they will shoot you dead, that CPS is evil.

They’ve been interrogated and threatened by CPS before.

Yeah, Nicole, we know.  According to Joe, 20 times. Not so many, according to you.  But still, more often than most people.  And I’m sure they have been told how horrible and evil CPS is almost daily for years.

This is tantamount to telling a small child who is afraid of the boogeymen and the dark that he has to go spend an indefinite length of time in a dark place with several boogeymen  and nobody is going to help him.

But poor Joe. He couldn’t help it. He was just distraught and therefore he emotionally abused his own children and who can blame him?

consent2

. . . they have yet to be able to justify seizure.

Nicole, they justified seizure when they went to the court and the judge issued a removal order, you dumb twit. That day.  You just don’t agree because of your “rights.”

You know, if this was really true, why in the hell are you bothering with all the “I’m gonna sue people for harassment” bullshit?  Why don’t you put all your effort and time into suing the state?  If you’re right, you might actually get a very large payoff. Do it.  Put your money where your very large mouth is.

People have won suits like that before, you know, for wrongful arrest and stuff.  Do it, Nicole.

I dare you.

Prove us all wrong. Think how you’ll be able to gloat.  Just do it.

 

 

Sainted, Part Two

The first two parts of this recording are on the other page.

Here is part three, which is the actual removal of the older two kids and Nicole’s arrest.

Pate: Do not make it any worse than it’s going to be.

Nicole: He knows his rights.

Pate: We’ll end up arresting your mother

Nicole: NO

Pate: I’m asking you to maintain your silence and I’m asking you to not interfere with what we’re doing.

Nicole: I don’t have proof that you have proof to take my children.

Pate: I have told you that as sheriff of this county and I am telling you now. . .

Nicole: (Yelling) Will you call the state police please? They are trying to kidnap my children. Call the state police and tell them.

Pate: We may call them ourself and get one out here

Nicole: Please do, cause you are overstepping your bounds. You have no grounds for taking my children. On hearsay, you cannot take my children. That does not give you grounds to do anything. That is kidnapping.

Pate: Ma’am, I am asking you to ask your children to comply with a court order that we . . .

Nicole: I don’t have proof of your court order, so therefore I’m going off of what you said and that’s not enough. That’s not enough. [Younger son’s name], stop. He’s just going to shoot you, ’cause that’s what cops do. They shoot people that don’t comply. You cannot kidnap my son.

Deputy: Sit down. Sit down!

Nicole: (yelling) You cannot kidnap my son.

Deputy: Ma’am, sit down!

Nicole: You cannot kidnap my son.

Deputy: You’re going to be under arrest

Nicole: You can shoot me dead, you can shoot me dead, but you cannot kidnap my son.

Deputy: talking in background, hard to understand

Nicole: (yelling louder) You will not kidnap my son! No! You stop. That is abuse. Stop abusing my children. Dear God. . .you’re gonna sleep tonight thinking you stole my kids because you’re

Deputy: (louder) Ma’am, you need to sit down in the car.

Nicole: (unclear) shoot me! (unclear) fucking do it

Deputy: (unclear) you’re going to be under arrest

Nicole: Go ahead!

Deputy: You’re going to be under arrest for disorderly if you don’t sit down!

Nicole: I am standing up for my rights! I have a 4th Amendment right to search and seizure (unclear) my children! You have seized my children! You have seized my children! [Yelling son’s name], do not say a word! I will come get you. Jacob, do not say a word under any circumstances.

[Pause of several seconds]

Pate: I explained to you what was getting ready to happen, didn’t I?

Nicole: You did this! You threatened me for not complying. You threatened me for not complying. You have no grounds to take my children.

Pate: Ma’am, do you want to go to jail with me?

Nicole: (yelling) I do not! I need to go find my other children and make sure you don’t take them either.

Pate: I am asking you to calm down, okay? I am asking you to calm down or I am placing you under arrest for disorderly conduct. Do you understand what I’m telling you?

Nicole: Why did you take my. . . I never saw a warrant, I never saw any kind of paperwork, you – I understand my rights.

Pate: Do you understand what I’m telling you? Do you understand what I’m telling you.

Nicole: I understand that I do not have a lawyer for them. I understand all this.

Deputy: You’re going to start understanding that you have to comply with the law, too.

Pate: I think she needs to be arrested for disorderly.

Nicole: No! I am not being disorderly. I am standing up for my rights.

Pate: You’re under arrest.

Nicole: NO SIR! DO NOT TAKE MY FOOT (garbled very loud yelling ) HELP! HELP! HELP! HELP! HELP! HELP! (garbled rapid speech about her phone and stuff recorded and “my husband” and something about “be careful of my belly.” ) I am not disorderly. I AM STANDING UP FOR MY RIGHTS. I don’t have any rights. (Pause) Can I leave my keys and my phone in my car for my husband? (Crying)

[At this point, the audio gets more distant as Nicole is obviously separated from her phone – the recording device]

[Several minutes of inaudible stuff follow, picking up at 7:34]

Deputy: There’s a phone laying in the front seat

Voice in distance: That’s not hers, that’s the boys. It’s the boys.

Another voice: This is not it?

[At 8:05, Joe enters]

Joe: I’m the father.

Pate: I understand you’re the father. I want you in the car or I will put you in a police car too. Do you understand me?

Joe: I’m recording it.

Pate: Do you have any children with you?

Joe: No, I do not. Listen, (inaudible) my wife.

Pate: I need the other children brought to the county (inaudible) I tried to deal with (inaudible).

Joe: (inaudible) We have done nothing wrong. Well, I have some friends coming up

Pate: (inaudible) we tried that

Joe: Where did they go with my wife? Can I take this car? She’s going to the county jail? You guys know that this is going to go viral. It’s going to go viral.

Pate: I want you to get in your car right this moment.

Joe: I will! I will! Yes, sir! Yes, sir. Yes, sir, yes, sir.

[several inaudible comments]

Joe: I can’t afford (inaudible)

Voice: (inaudible) in your car or you’re going to be under arrest

Joe: Yes, sir!

[Several moments of inaudible voices in the distance – resumes with more looking for the phone]

Voices: Was it a white phone or a black one? I think the black one.

[more inaudible stuff – at 12:19 a car leaves]

[12:52 – more cars leaving, and possibly Joe talking in the distant background]

Joe: . . . just because we wouldn’t talk to you guys on your terms, because we were busy.

Pate: They need to be there by ten o’clock in the morning. . . (inaudible) laying on the dash. Did you find her phone, Bruce?

Voice: She was scuffling and carrying on, her phone (inaudible) . . . hollering

Joe: So her phone’s not here at all?

Voice: You might try to call it if it’ll ring.

Voice: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, (inaudible) It could be, I don’t think it’s in my car. He’s calling it. . .

There is a better recording of Joe located here. I didn’t go to the trouble to transcribe it because it’s just Joe caving in rapidly and saying little if anything meaningful.  And this version has the great stuff, like the “this is going viral” thing (be careful what you wish for), and the whole “we were busy and therefore the Breck County judge can just jolly well wait on us to get around to stuff” thing.

But notice how Nicole says that she knows she doesn’t have a lawyer for her children?  She never had an attorney. All the shit about “we’re arranging for our attorney” was just that – shit.  They didn’t have an attorney. They didn’t get one until some time later, after this.

So they were not prepared to allow CPS to interview those kids, ever.

Okay, now for one last little gem. This is Joe.  Joe is telling his other eight children about their imminent surrender.  Nobody could stage this. If anyone ever deserved the Shitty Father of the Year Award, it’s Joe Naugler for this performance. [The audio for this is on that same Youtube video.]

Keep in mind that the two oldest boys were already in state care, so he is talking to children who at their oldest are very young teenagers. Most of them are just young children.

[6:51 on Youtube video]

[kids chattering in background]

Joe: Have a seat right now. I have to tell you what’s going on.

[kids background noise]

Joe: Okay, listen. The state has kidnapped Jacob and [second oldest son’s name]. They’ve arrested Mom, okay, and they will be kidnapping you tomorrow morning. If I don’t bring you down to the sheriff’s office by ten o’clock tomorrow morning, they will put FELONY CHARGES out on me. And Mom.

So this is what’s gonna happen. Tomorrow morning, I’m going down to the sheriff’s office and I’m just gonna have to send you guys to the state for a while, until we can get you guys back.

Okay? That’s just what’s gonna happen, and there’s nothing I can do about it. (inaudible) force of a gun to dictate this. You guys understand why we live the way we live? You guys understand?

Okay, while you’re with them, you say nothing. You understand? Don’t consent, and nothing.

Child’s voice: What’s consent?

Joe: You don’t, you don’t agree with what they’re doing. Okay? You be reverent, you be decent, okay? All right? But. . . this is, this is crazy out of control. So, I have to drop you guys off at ten o’clock tomorrow. You will not be living with us for I don’t know how long.

And that, folks, is how to scare the shit out of your kids in one easy lesson.  Use big words they don’t understand. Use other words like “kidnap” that they might vaguely understand and know are scary awful. Tell them that there is nothing you can do about it (so they have no champion or any defense at all). Mention guns.  And make sure that, like Mom, you’re making it all about you and your “felony charges.”

It becomes “Sorry, kids, but fuck you. I don’t want any felony charges so you have to go live someplace else and it will be scary as hell because it’s kidnapping.” And leave it all very, very open-ended.  “I don’t know how long.”

If the Naugler parents ever deserved to have their children removed for abuse, this alone is Exhibit A.

And if ever anyone should be nominated for sainthood, it’s Sheriff Todd Pate.

Sainted, Part One

nicolebitching

Nicole, you dumb woman, nobody “informed” you of anything. You read this blog.  And I was very clear about what I transcribed. It wasn’t the whole damned thing. It was just a portion, and I very clearly indicated the places that I thought were edited.

It’s not my fucking recording. I didn’t edit it.

But, you know what?  You inspired me.

So I found and transcribed the whole god-damned thing. Or at least as much of it as I could find and felt like bothering with. I am quite sure anyone who wants to pick some nits can go through the original and find the occasional word that I missed. Some of the conversation overlaps (Nicole interrupted a whole lot) and it was sometimes hard to hear. Nicole speaks very rapidly when she gets all fired up and it all runs together and that makes it very hard to understand.

If you have a problem with my transcription, by all means, do it yourself and send me a copy that’s better.

Here we go.  The link is here.

[NOTE:  The track labeled Nicole-1 isn’t actually first.  The first one seems to be Nicole-2. It’s very short, less than thirty seconds.  I am not really sure when it was recorded, frankly, but Nicole is not having any shit-fits, so I assume that the sheriff had not shown up yet.]

Here is the first track:

Nicole: Yeah, it’s already almost nine o’clock.

Male voice in background: You’re getting ready to leave [I think this is what he’s saying – it’s hard to hear]

Nicole: Yeah, they’re just going to grab a wagon load of a few things we need and we’re on our way.

Male voice: All right

After that, there is some mumbling which appears to be between Nicole and one of the boys.

I have no idea of the identity of the male voice. I don’t know if it’s Sheriff Pate, and this is the prelude, or if this was on a different day (I don’t think it was, though).  I simply do not know.

Here is the second track. It is about 17 minutes in length and this is a long transcription.

Walking, heavy breathing (indicating that Nicole, who is holding the phone recording, is walking rapidly)

Talking begins at 47 seconds in.

Male voice (probably Sheriff Pate): [Greeting of some sort. I can’t understand him]

Nicole: Hello

Pate: How are you?

Nicole: Doin’ all right.

Pate: Is uh, James around?

Nicole: Joe. No, he’s not.

Pate: Joe. Okay.

Nicole: No, it’s just me and my boys. Um, actually, my pet sitter was watching my dogs for me and she’s the one that told me you were here last night. She told me, “I went by last night and the sheriff’s at your house – I don’t know what’s going on” and today she said, “I’m not going back up there by myself” so I came back to take care of my dogs.

[ NOTE: This is a little garbled. Nicole speaks very fast, and gets faster when she’s agitated and sometimes it’s difficult to discern her exact words, but this is the gist of it.]

Pate: Okay. How many of you all are here now?

Nicole: It’s me and my two teenage sons.

Pate: The other children are not here?

Nicole: No. We’ve, uh, got odd jobs goin’ on and so we’re not (garbled) gotta drive back. Actually, I’ve got to talk to. . . (mumbling)

Pate: Um, here, um, I assume you’re going to tell me that I can’t talk to the boys. Is that what you’re going to tell me?

Nicole: Right, that’s protocol I’m following [Note: she’s mumbling here rapidly and I think that’s what she’s saying]

Pate: Because, and I talked to, is it Joe?

Nicole: Mm umm (assent)

Pate: Okay. I talked to him today and asked him, and that is your right to refuse to let –

Nicole: Right, and I’m trying to arrange something with my attorney so that I can. . . (garbled)

Pate: Let me just explain something to you. Okay? Now you can believe this or you can not believe this, but I’m going to tell you what is going to end up happening. Okay?

Nicole: Okay.

Pate: If you don’t allow, after allegations have been made, the Cabinet for Families and Children to speak to those children, just like I said the last time – and Joe said today, he said, “Well, you said you were getting a warrant last time and you didn’t.” No, I did not. Why did I not? Because you all allowed them to speak to the Cabinet worker. Here’s how I see this thing going down. Here’s how I feel certain that it’s going to go down.

Nicole: Okay.

Pate: You are standing the chance of having your children removed.

Nicole : For what – under what grounds? [She starts snapping at him here.]

Pate: Let me just finish what I’m saying.

Nicole: For not complying?

Pate: Okay, when there’s allegations made – now let’s don’t – let’s have a civil conversation. . .

Nicole: Okay, I’m fine with that [I think – she basically backs down a little from her hostility]

Pate: When there are allegations made, okay, they have an obligation to check that out. They can’t say, oh, we just don’t believe it, or oh, we went out there and the mother and father said you can’t speak to them. They can’t do that. I mean, whether they think that it’s BS or not– and a lot of times we get those type of calls – and there’s probably a decent chance that is this type of call, and there’s a decent chance that this thing could be resolved much simpler – but I’m telling you, the refusal, to say no you will not talk to my children or no you will not do that – the court is gonna step in and I think that they will remove your children, and they will talk to your children whether you like that or not.

Nicole: So I have no rights as a parent.

Pate: and I don’t have a dog in this fight, other than I’m telling you

Nicole: I have Constitutional rights. I have a right as a parent, and my children won’t speak with anybody without my permission, without an attorney (garbled)

Pate: You want me to tell you what I think is getting ready to happen, and it’s gonna happen real quick?

Nicole: I’m going to be retaliated against for standing up for my rights.

Pate: . . .that is in the process right at this moment

Nicole: Right. I am being retaliated against.

Pate: I am tell you that court is in the process, as we speak, if it is not done at this moment of doing removal orders on your children.

Nicole: Under what grounds?

Pate: The Cabinet is in the process. . .

Nicole: Because they can, because they have the authority, because you guys are the state, because you guys are the ones with the guns, the ammo, the weapons? Is that why?

Pate: I’m telling you now, here’s what will happen the next step if you say, oh, I don’t care that you have a court order, uh, for my children, your children, if the judge signs that order, are going to be removed and then you are going to be. . .

Nicole: On what grounds? I mean, we haven’t broken any laws. I know, but you’re saying, okay, I’m going to arrest you for resisting arrest. That doesn’t make any sense.

Pate: I’m telling you. . .

Nicole: You guys have no grounds

Pate: the Cabinet for Families and Children have gotten a complaint. I’m telling you that the Cabinet for Families and Children. . .

Nicole: And I can call them tomorrow and say that there’s a complaint on you and it doesn’t mean it’s right, and it doesn’t mean it’s

Pate: Let me finish what I’m saying. Whether you like what I’m saying or not, this is

Nicole: Or whether it’s legal or right or moral

Pate: You have a right to do whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever, but here’s what I see coming down the pike. You can believe me or not believe me.

Nicole: I know what the state’s willing to do. I know what it’s allowed to do and I know what it’s willing to do.

Pate: I am telling you that if that happens, and if you attempt to refuse that, then you will be charged with, I think, if the county attorney feels that way, and he has already indicated that he does feel that way, that each of you, if you do not comply, will be charged with custodial interference – felony charges

Nicole: I’m the custodian. How can I interfere with that?

Pate: Because if the state takes control over

Nicole: The state has control over my children. So they’re not really my children. I birthed them, I grow them, I raise them.

Pate: I’m not going to argue with you.

Nicole: I know you’re not, because you’re just a tool of the state.

Pate: I am just a tool of the state trying to make an honest living for my family.

Nicole: Off of corruption.

Pate: And if it weren’t me here, it would be another officer. If there is non-compliant and we get those court orders and the things that you’re posting on Facebook are true – ten ways to deal with the police –

Nicole: Oh, you guys are stalking my page. I’m glad you guys read stuff.

Pate: blah, blah, blah, we will bring a SWAT team in here and do what we have to do. I don’t want to do that.

Nicole: If you willing to shoot me to take my children, that’s what you have to do.

Pate: I am not saying that.

Nicole: you have a choice – you can either. . .

Pate: but I know that there’s gunfire around here and I see things that are posted such as – how am I supposed to take something that says you picked the wrong person to fight with now and . . .

Nicole: Yes, I was referring to the woman who reported

Pate: I mean, are you saying that there is potential gunfire on you all’s part

Nicole: I didn’t say anything. You can read into it however you want to, but I will protect my family.

Pate: But do you understand where I might read into it that?

Nicole: Yes. I will. I’ll post some more stuff on Facebook so maybe you can educate yourself a little bit more about my rights. My rights.

Pate: No, you have to understand. . .

Nicole: How you guys were on my property, without a warrant, one, two, three, four, five, and there’s four more on the other one, and it says “Keep out. No Trespassing.” What does that mean?

Pate: It means to keep out and no trespassing.

Nicole: Okay, so you guys came on my property without permission. That is trespassing. So I will file criminal trespass charges against you. It is. If you go on someone’s property. . .

Pate: You may need to educate yourself.

Nicole: I’m – trust me, I spend a lot of time – I’m – criminal trespass, thank you.

Pate: That does not apply –

Nicole: does not apply to you?

Pate: to the police when they are

Nicole: when you don’t have a warrant

Pate: Ma’am, if you will, there are times that I need a search warrant

Nicole: There’s a phone number right there. There’s a phone number right there. You didn’t attempt to call them.

Pate: I tried it numerous times. Left you a message on one if you’d have listened to it.

Nicole: Actually, I got that as I was coming in

Pate: I’m not going to stand here and argue with you. I am not going to stand here and argue. I think that if you do not comply, that , if you will look back, if, if you don’t care any more than to put your children out there, and stand a chance of them potentially. . .

Nicole: I am protecting my children from the state.

Pate: They are getting ready to go into state custody.

Nicole: No, they’re not. No, they’re not.

Pate: Okay.

Nicole: They’re not.

Pate: Okay.

Nicole: Mark my words, they will not.

Pate: They will not. Do you have them prepared to do something?

Nicole: I don’t have them prepared to do anything.

Pate: Are there weapons on the property?

Nicole: That’s my Constitutional right to have whatever weapons I choose

Pate: Okay.

[Short silence]

Pate: You’re making this a lot more difficult. . .

Nicole: My property is protected by the 4th Amendment

Pate: Why can’t you let them come out and say, hey kid, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and us leave and leave you alone for another year?

Nicole: Because I know what they’d do. You guys were here last year and we did the whole blah, blah, blah, and you don’t need to come back. You know that nothing’s wrong.

Pate: If somebody calls in on my tip line or somebody calls social services

Nicole: She’s a coward. You’re going off of hearsay. You’re coming after my family on hearsay. On hearsay.

Pate: I’m not going after your family at all. If somebody called in and said something bad was happening to you, I wouldn’t say, “Oh, I just don’t believe that.” I would be out here to investigate it because that is my job. If I don’t investigate it and something happens to any of these children, or you, if a complaint was called in on, then. . . then they

Nicole: I didn’t hire you to protect my family. I didn’t hire you to protect my family. I can protect my family myself. I do just fine. I didn’t hire you guys to protect my family. I am forced to pay for your services but I did not willingly hire you. If I need a bodyguard I will hire one.

Pate: Okay. What are you telling me exactly . . .

Nicole: I am telling you I know my Constitutional rights and I’m willing to fight them. I know my rights.

Pate: Physically fight? Is that what you’re telling me?

Nicole: I’m not saying anything. I’m telling you I’m willing to fight for my rights. However you want to interpret that is up to you, but I’m telling you I will protect my family.

Pate: I’m going to ask you. . .

Nicole: And I know how to use the law and I know my rights.

Pate: I’m going to ask you at this time. How many children are here?

Nicole: I told you. My two teenage boys are here.

Pate: Okay, I’m going to ask you at this time to bring them down here. I’m not going to speak to them. I want to lay eyes on them and see them.

Nicole: So if they stand at the van and wave to you is that good enough?

Pate: I would like for them just to stand, on the other side of that – I won’t question them, I won’t talk to them. I just want to see them. I won’t question them, I just want to see them. Tell them to keep their mouths shut and not say a thing.

Nicole: But why should I trust. . .

Pate: You don’t have to do that, but I’m telling you, I am telling you, that I feel like you are making this a hundred

Nicole: And I know that as soon as I pull out of here, you’re going to pull me over on some stupid little traffic thing

Pate: Not true

Nicole: and go after me for that.

Pate: Nah, that’s not true. I don’t do business that way. Never have, not going to get started today. I’ve been doing this for twenty-some years and I don’t enjoy ever taking anyone’s children from them. It’s the worst part of the job that you can ever do. Why would I like to tear someone from their home?

Nicole: I don’t know but I know it’s a big (inaudible) state gets money. I know that (inaudible) gets money. You’ve been stalking my pages. Did you see the video I posted the other day of the jailer who is auctioning off, saying oh we’ve got plenty of revenue, we’ve got criminals (inaudible) and we’ve got all these laws and we’re pumping people through, and here’s all kinds of money being made here. Did you watch that video I posted?

Pate: I am not a very smart officer if I am going to deal with someone who will not let me talk to their children based on a complaint

Nicole: I will let you talk to my children when my attorney is present.

Pate: and I don’t use, and I don’t use the resources that are available to me, you know. And if I don’t, you know, and you know, I have to use those resources to find out about threats against my officers and other people. My goal at the end of the day is to go home, to see my family

Nicole: I am arranging, I’m arranging a meeting with the (new?) attorney. When I arrange that, I will let you and CPS talk with them after I’ve dealt with my attorney. But I want legal representation before I discuss anything with my children.

Pate: Will you let them come where I can see their face?

Nicole: I don’t know. We’ve got a lot of stuff to do, dogs to take care of.

Pate: Nicole, don’t make this difficult.

Nicole: I’m not trying to make it difficult. I’m trying to protect myself. And I know my rights.

Pate: You’re putting your children out there. That’s what you’re doing, and I don’t think, I mean, if you love your children, you wouldn’t do that to them. Because you’re headed to . . .

Nicole: I’d let the state take care of them, right. Let the state come in and just decide what they think is right. What the state decides is right and wrong and not me. And it’s majority rule, and the majority doesn’t like the way I think or the way I live or what I post on Facebook that might offend people.

Pate: I don’t care how you live, where you live, what you live, or that you live off the land, I think it’s kinda pretty cool, but I think that you also have to understand that I have a job to do and that I have to follow up on complaints

Nicole: Then tell me exactly what, specifically what your concern is? What is your specific concern?

Pate: The concern is there’s a complaint to serve, one concern is that there’s a complaint to serve on Joe where he went to get water, supposedly – now, it’s based on what is on a piece of paper, I wasn’t there, I don’t know – there’s two sides to that story and the other side is Joe’s, but what is on that piece of paper is that he went to get water and they told him he wasn’t welcome to. In a nutshell, I’m not quoting what the person said, and that he told one of the children to go get the gun out of the glove box and that is a concern for the Cabinet for Families and Children. It’s also a concern for law enforcement.

Nicole: Okay.

Pate: Now –

Nicole: So, hypothetically speaking, if someone feels in danger

Pate: when you barricade yourself in a place and say “hands off, police” and “hands off, Cabinet for Families and Children, we don’t care what your complaint is, we don’t care“– you know, it’s okay for you to say yourself “I will never talk to the police and that’s my right.” It’s also –

Nicole: My children don’t have that right?

Pate: your right to protect your children

Nicole: Do my children have that right?

Pate: Do you think that I – okay, let me ask you this question

Nicole: So if I asked my children

Pate: If a family that doesn’t live and believe like you are saying that your family does – I get a call from some woman screaming and hollering “I just walked in and my husband, uh, is beating my child and they’ve got, they need stitches and their nose is broken and this and that,” am I supposed to say, “Well, who gives a shit?”

Nicole: I wouldn’t call you.

Pate: I’m saying if that happened – a neighbor sees it or hears it

Nicole: I wouldn’t call you.

Pate: A neighbor sees or hears it. What would you tell me to do as the police?

Nicole: I wouldn’t tell you to do anything. I wouldn’t call you.

Pate: So I should just let that child be abused and beaten

Nicole: If someone was beating my child, I would intervene. I wouldn’t let anyone abuse my child.

Pate: So there’s no in between with you understanding my occupation, based on your beliefs.

Nicole: No, I’m trying to let you know that I’m standing by my rights and I know that I have them

Pate: I think that you’ll, I think that you will see

Nicole: that I’ll be punished for standing up for using my rights?

Pate: I think that you’re going to wish that you had just let the children say “hey” or that “everything’s okay” or this that and the other when your children are potentially taken out of the home and split into different custody. That’s what I think you’ll see. That’s where we’re headed. That’s where it’s going.

Nicole: If that’s what you guys want to try to do, then that’s fine.

Pate: It’s not what I am going to try to do. It’s going to be a petition placed by social services handed to a judge,

Nicole: You still haven’t told me what your concern is.

Pate: I’m going to let the Cabinet tell you that.

Nicole: Well, you’re here. You want to talk to my children. (Calls) Jacob! You and [younger brother’s name] come stand right there and wave to Mr. Officer here and then go back to the cabin. Unless you want to talk to him, then you can come down here.

Pate: This could be so. . .

Nicole (to Jacob): Do you want to talk to the officer here?

Jacob: No, I can’t say that I do.

Nicole: Okay, you and [younger brother’s name] come stand right here. If you want to talk to the officer, you can. If not, just stand there and don’t say a word. It’s up to you. Go tell [younger brother]. Well, tell him real quick because the officer wants to see him, physically see him. If he wants to talk to him, he can come down here. If not, he can just stand there and wave. Does Maggie have water?

Jacob: Yes.

Nicole: Is she untangled?

Jacob: Yep.

Nicole: Good. Thank you. Can you grab my, uh, bling boxes please?

Jacob: Yeah.

Nicole: Thank you. [to Pate] Well, there’s one child.

Pate: So, you all are not living here. You’re not staying here. Is that what you’re telling me?

[NOTE: At this point, Nicole becomes very soft-spoken and difficult to hear and extremely evasive.]

Nicole: I don’t know.

Pate: Is there a reason for that?

Nicole: Uh, yeah, it’s personal reasons.

Pate: So were you all here earlier today when we were here?

Nicole: No, uh, I came only by just because the lady who was supposed to watch my dogs didn’t want to come back because you guys made her uncomfortable.

Pate: So she was here.

Nicole: She was here last night when you guys were here but she left. She was supposed to make sure the dogs had water.

Pate: Are you all moving from here?

Nicole: That’s personal information.

Pate: That’s what?

Nicole: That’s personal information.

Pate: Oh.

Nicole: [unclear mumbling]

Pate: How many children do you have? Ten or eleven?

Nicole: If you were following my page, you’d know. You were reading there today, obviously you were reading my page today, previous post, because that was

Pate: I’m not going to argue with you

Nicole: I know

Pate: I don’t have Facebook, don’t follow Facebook

Nicole: you obviously read my posts from today and yesterday and last week [Speaks to younger son] [Name], do you want to talk to these gentlemen? Yes or no.

[Younger son]: (unclear)

Nicole: Okay. If you have anything you want to say you can come by, if not you can go finish grabbing what you’re grabbing. Alma, back. Go see – [son’s name] call Alma.

[Younger son]: Alma!

Nicole: Go with him. [to Pate] Is there anything else that you need?

Pate: Nicole, I’m sorry that you are allowing things to go this way. Okay, you may think that I am trying to call your bluff but I think you’ll see differently. It’s not a threat. I think that you will regret doing business the way that you’re doing it. Okay? That’s what I have to say. I mean, I don’t know if your husband is controlling the way that you are responding. . .

Nicole: No (with a laugh)

Pate: to this situation. . .

Nicole: No.

Pate: This is just you all’s beliefs, but I would hate to think what the world would be like if there weren’t some kind of authority figure, okay?

Nicole: yeah.

Pate: Um, so, we’re gonna go, but I can’t tell you that we won’t be back tomorrow.

Nicole: I won’t be here.

Pate: Okay.

Nicole: I have work to do. I don’t use the state funds to support my family, so I actually have a job.

Pate: Do you all receive any state funds, as assistance?

Nicole: No. Never have. I will not be a whore of the state, either by paid profession or voluntarily – welfare handouts. [To the boys:] Do you have everything? [To Pate] Am I, am I free to go?

Male voice: Yeah.

Nicole: Thank you.

I have marked some lines in red type because they really stood out to me. Nicole, in this audio, was belligerent as hell.  She was for the most part, snappy and rude.  She belittled Sheriff Pate for his very job, referring to it as “corruption.”

In addition, it’s all about her. It’s about her rights, and her interpretation of the law, and her dictating who could do what.  It’s her schedule, down to arranging for an attorney.  Only Sheriff Pate (marked in blue) mentions that she might want to think about what she’s potentially putting the children through and if she loved them, maybe she wouldn’t do that. He’s the one who seems to actually be concerned about her children. Not her. She’s just concerned about her “rights.”

And there are several places where she makes what I consider to be veiled threats of violence. Sheriff Pate obviously read it that way as well.  There are also serious indications throughout this whole thing that the Nauglers were in the process of fleeing.

My special favorite place was where she accuses Pate of never trying to call them, and then he immediately says, oh yes, he did, and left messages, and then she immediately says, oh yes, she got that one. That was the only real comedic portion of this whole thing, but it was funny.

So Sheriff Pate spent the better part of 20 minutes trying to reason with Nicole, trying to prepare her for what was coming, and trying to get her to relent.  He knew he was about to get a removal order and he kept telling her that.

During this whole thing, Sheriff Pate never once raised his voice, or lost his temper, or was anything but calm and measured and very, very patient.

This is a very long post, so I am going to continue this in another one.

Stolen Children

invokedrights

This is a common narrative from Nicole. She tells the story every chance she gets. This is her version:

The Nauglers were just minding their own business, being nice to everyone and living off-grid and homeschooling their gorgeous children, when for no reason at all ( or because of being “unfriended on Facebook,” or for some other petty reason – it changes) some evil person called CPS and reported them.  It was completely due to vindictiveness on the reporter’s part.

CPS just went ballistic based on that one report and sent Sheriff Pate out to the Blessed Shitstead to take the kids. It just so happened that Nicole was there with the two oldest boys and Joe was at an unspecified location with all the others.  There was no warning whatever.  They had no idea this might happen.

And it was all based on nothing more than one phone call.

This, of course, is not true.

timeline

A different version.

The sheriff came to serve notice about the menacing charge. They weren’t home.

I hate to be the one to break the news to Nicole, but anyone can enter your property who wants to if all they are doing is trying to deliver something, or if they are wanting to talk with you. This morning, some Jehovah’s Witnesses came to our door, briefly.  We didn’t yell at them for “trespassing.”  It’s not illegal for them to do that.

Furthermore, the Shitshack had only three sides.  Anyone could see inside it without much trouble. Nobody had to trespass to see how the Nauglers were living.

CPS then tried to arrange some sort of visit with the Nauglers but were refused twice.

Do you see the position that this placed the CPS people in?  They were dealing with parents who were refusing to talk with them, and who were obviously living in horrid conditions with umpteen children, and who are known to be relatively transient.  What would you think was going on?

The Nauglers have been reported to CPS anywhere from six or seven times (Nicole) to 20 times (Joe).  These reports have come from all sorts of people, including a librarian (so says Nicole). They have occurred in numerous different places, not all one county.

I suppose every time it was due to mean people who suck.

It’s just sort of amazing to me that anyone believes this shit. Dave and I raised a son to adulthood, lived in two different states with him, homeschooled and never once were reported to CPS by anyone.

What are the odds that we’d never be reported while the Nauglers are reported repeatedly if none of us were ever doing anything that would warrant such a report?

My personal opinion is that they were in the midst of doing what they always have done in the past: fleeing.  Joe had left with the younger kids. Nicole was following with the two oldest who were grabbing last-minute stuff.  Pate surprised them.

What Pate had was an emergency custody order.  He didn’t have to show Nicole anything.  He had an order to take those children into protective custody.  They aren’t her possessions. They are children. They have the right to be protected by the state, even if that means being protected from their parents.

At that point, the state had reason to believe that the children were in danger, not because of their living conditions, which were deplorable, but because the Naugler parents were evasive and showing every indication that they were getting ready to run.

The sherif said —-I think it pretty cool how you live but you aren’t cooperating–

I wish she’d learn how to spell “sheriff.”

Is that accurate?  Well, I went and listened.  The recording can be accessed via the Link page.  But I transcribed it for you. There were apparently five people present: Sheriff Pate, a deputy, Nicole and the two oldest boys. I have done my best to attribute the audio to the correct person. Nicole is obvious. Sheriff Pate and the deputy are not so obvious, however, it’s my understanding that Sheriff Pate is the one with the calm, measured tone and the deputy is the one who came in later when Nicole began yelling so much.

Pate: We went out there, and the mother and father said, ‘You can’t speak to them, you can’t do that’, I mean whether they think that it’s BS or not – and a lot of times we get those type of calls – and there’s probably a decent chance that is this type of call, and there’s a decent chance that this thing could be resolved much simpler. . .”

[There is a break here. I suspect this has been edited. Footsteps, rustling.]

Nicole: Yeah, it’s already almost nine o’clock.

[More rustling, footsteps, probably another edit.]

Pate: Do not make it any harder than it’s going to be. . .

Nicole: He knows his rights

Pate: We will end up arresting. . .(garbled)

Nicole: No!

Pate: I’m asking you to maintain your silence and I’m asking you to not interfere with what we’re doing.

Nicole: I don’t have proof that you have proof to take my children.

Pate: I have told you . . .

Nicole: I need proof

Pate: (unclear) on behalf of this county. . .

Nicole: (Yelling) Will you call the state police please? They are trying to kidnap my children.

Pate: We are doing removal orders on your children.

Nicole: Under what grounds?

Pate: The Cabinet is in the process. . .

Nicole: (interrupts) Because they can, because they have the authority, because you are the state, because you guys are the ones with the guns, the ammo, the weapons, is that why?

Pate: I am telling you now –

Nicole: (garbled) might offend people

Pate: I don’t care how you live, where you live, what you live, or that you live off the land, I think it’s kinda pretty cool, but –

Nicole: (yelling) Call the state police and tell them-

Pate: We may call them ourselves –

Nicole: Please do because you are overstepping your bounds

[more rustling, and steps, and probably another edit]

Nicole: You have no grounds for taking my children. On hearsay, you cannot take my children. That does not give you grounds to do anything. That is kidnapping.

Pate: Ma’am, I am asking you to ask your children to comply with a court order that we have

Nicole: I don’t have proof of your court order, so therefore I’m going off of what you said, and that’s not enough.

(to child) Stop. He’s just going to shoot you, cause that’s what cops do – they shoot people that don’t comply

(yelling at Pate) You cannot kidnap my son

Deputy ( I think): Sit down. Sit down!

Nicole: (yelling) You cannot kidnap my son

Deputy: (louder, clearly running out of patience) Ma’am , sit down

Nicole: (yelling) You cannot kidnap my son

Deputy: (loudly, over her yelling) You’re going to be under arrest

Nicole: Shoot me dead! Shoot me dead, but you will not kidnap my son – you will not kidnap my son

Pate: talking in the background, apparently to either the deputy or one of the boys, garbled

Nicole: No! You stop! That is abuse! Stop abusing my children!

At this point, it devolves into both Nicole and the deputy yelling, and Nicole being arrested, all the while yelling for Pate and/or the deputy to shoot her.

Now then, it’s quite clear that Pate was very patiently trying to explain to Nicole that his personal opinion about her lifestyle was not why he was there, that he was doing exactly what his job required, that the court had issued an order, and that it had nothing to do with her lifestyle “offending” him (which was her accusation).  He was saying what most of us have said all along – that we have no problem with people who choose to live off-grid, or “homestead,” or homeschool, or even with people who have tin-foil-hat-like political ideas and think 9/11 was a hoax or that cops are evil.  We have a problem with people who neglect their children and beg for money online.

In addition, she carries on incessantly in the video about the children, as though the two boys being taken were five years old. She yells at them that the police are going to shoot them.  She accused Pate of “abusing” them.

Those were not small children. They were her two oldest boys, teenagers. Believe me, nobody wants anyone else’s teenagers.  Really, they don’t.

But Nicole is riding this horse again because she wants us to understand that the evil, awful state, that horrible CPS, only wants beautiful “unabused” children because they are selling those children in order to make money for the state.

Her remarks in the original screen shot were about a piece describing how an abused child was ignored even though there were multiple reports.  The abused children are ignored because they aren’t valuable, don’t you know. The state wants children like her perfect ones because they have an easier time selling those kids.

And furthermore, they need funding. CPS needs money. So CPS ignores abused children, hoping they will be killed, so they can get more money by claiming they don’t have enough.

She actually believes this.

She believes that an entire agency of the state that exists in fifty different incarnations, composed of thousands of people, actively and purposefully ignores abused children in the hopes that they will be killed so the agency can get money, and that they actively steal beautiful, perfect children like hers to sell.

I tried to find some data about how many CPS workers there are in the US.  The most I could find with a quick search was that in Texas alone, there are “thousands.”  That means more than 2000 in one state.  And of course, there would be more in larger states and fewer in smaller states, but we’re talking here about tens of thousands of people.

And all these tens of thousands of people are colluding to steal some children and ignore other children so they will be killed, for money, not for themselves, but for the state.

She actually believes this.

return

And here’s a comment.

. . . they’ll keep the ones who are. . .

That’s interesting.

I wonder why they didn’t.